Fundamentalist Dogma

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Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by Thoughts01 on Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:17 am

On another board I frequent I'm constantly embroiled in debate with fundamentalist Baptist Christians who continues to try this line of thought in challenging all others who do not believe the way he does. This is the direct post from him. Anybody care to anwser his "question" from a Gnostic point of view???


In another discussion the question was raised as to whether Christianity teaches one path to salvation or one of many. I can understand this argument being brought up by someone who does not believe as Christians do, but the attempt was made to justify the multiple path argument from a Christian perspective.

For those who would make this argument, I have two questions:

1) Does the non-exclusive argument not undermine Biblical authority and the gospel message itself?

and

2) If salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is not an exclusive path to salvation, why did Jesus have to die on the cross?

I am not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to get you to think about what you believe. I don't believe this understanding can be reconciled with scripture.

What do you think?

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Re: Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by Admin on Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:47 pm

Thoughts01 wrote:On another board I frequent I'm constantly embroiled in debate with fundamentalist Baptist Christians who continues to try this line of thought in challenging all others who do not believe the way he does. This is the direct post from him. Anybody care to answer his "question" from a Gnostic point of view???


In another discussion the question was raised as to whether Christianity teaches one path to salvation or one of many. I can understand this argument being brought up by someone who does not believe as Christians do, but the attempt was made to justify the multiple path argument from a Christian perspective.

For those who would make this argument, I have two questions:

1) Does the non-exclusive argument not undermine Biblical authority and the gospel message itself?

and

2) If salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is not an exclusive path to salvation, why did Jesus have to die on the cross?

I am not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to get you to think about what you believe. I don't believe this understanding can be reconciled with scripture.

What do you think?

1) There is, as far as my experience tells me, only one way to attain Spiritual Truth/genuine Gnosis/Salvation. Yehoshua taught/revealed that very way, as did every genuine Master/Teacher throughout history. It was only after the Master(s) had died that the teaching became corrupted and twisted to suit the purposes of various people and hierarchies wanting worldly power and riches. So, if mankind had not corrupted the truth, every great religion would be at one.

When Yehoshua is reported to have said that he is the only way, he was speaking to his contemporary ('living') disciples and, of course, AT THAT TIME he was the only way.

If anything in the Bible seems to contradict the truth, then it is the book which is at fault.

2) Yehoshua was executed merely because the vast majority of people at that time wanted to get rid of him and his anti-orthodox teachings. It meant nothing to the Roman and/or Jewish authorities to trump up charges against a troublemaker. It is a nonsense to believe that his death was some kind of blood sacrifice for sins. In my opinion Christians made up such stories to explain away the embarassing situation facing them, i.e. a "god" being executed by mere men.

PLU ~ Bob sunny

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Re: Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by Thoughts01 on Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:04 am

Thanks Bob... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by seekerjuan on Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:07 pm

Thoughts01 wrote:On another board I frequent I'm constantly embroiled in debate with fundamentalist Baptist Christians who continues to try this line of thought in challenging all others who do not believe the way he does. This is the direct post from him. Anybody care to anwser his "question" from a Gnostic point of view???


In another discussion the question was raised as to whether Christianity teaches one path to salvation or one of many. I can understand this argument being brought up by someone who does not believe as Christians do, but the attempt was made to justify the multiple path argument from a Christian perspective.

For those who would make this argument, I have two questions:

1) Does the non-exclusive argument not undermine Biblical authority and the gospel message itself?

and

2) If salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is not an exclusive path to salvation, why did Jesus have to die on the cross?

I am not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to get you to think about what you believe. I don't believe this understanding can be reconciled with scripture.

What do you think?

I agree with Bob's statements above, but I would like to add to them.

First, you must understand that the Gnostic World View is not the same as the Orthodox World View. The way and the path are two different things to a Gnostic. Each of us has a separate path, that is our personal road to Salvation, our personal awakening, if you will. The Gnosis we must attain, through personal experience, will open our eyes and bring us to Salvation. But, salvation through Gnosis, unlike salvation through faith in the Orthodox World View, requires more of us that mere blind faith, it requires that we actively seek and through our search for the Light, the essence of the Divine, the Divine will come to meet us. Without the search, without Gnosis, there is no salvation. Faith stops the search. You believe you have found all that you need in the dogma, so you stop searching. That is the trap of the Orthodox...

Second, Yehosua died, not for our sins, but to bring the rest of the message his disciples needed to teach salvation through Gnosis. There were two parts to His ministry. The first, before His death, was symbolic and public. He used metaphors and parables, because he was human. After His resurrection into His Spiritual Body, he could impart His teachings 'without simultude' to his disciples. This was the true purpose of His death. You will find some reference to this in the Acts but much of it is in the Gnostic texts, like Pistis Sophia and the Gospel of Judas. Keep in mind, Yehosua remained over 11 years in the Gnostic view, but only 40 days in the Orthodox view. Although 40 days according to Bible Scholars, just means a long time.

You will always find it challenging to win an argument with a fundamentalist. Unlike the Gnostic view that is based on personal experience, knowledge, logic and evidence, the Orthodox has all of the answers in their book. They expect their faith to be challenged and will continue to pull you back to the book as proof. If the world contradicts their World View, the book, then it is the world that is the Great Deceiver. Their reaction to evolution, scientific cosmology, the age of the world, denying that the dinosaurs really existed are all symptoms of this. A Gnostic, aware of doctrines of error, will say that if my experience and gnosis contradict the book, the book is wrong. (See Pistis Sophia Ch. 134.)

When dealing with public debate on the internet, it is not only your opponent who sees your words, there is a larger audience. You may not persuade the person you debate with, but your questions may stir The Spirit in someone reading your words. Be respectful. Be humble. Be honest. Above all, thank them for the opportunity to advance your own Gnosis! Represent yourself as an honest seeker of Truth and Enlightenment.

Always remember that Atheists and Agnostics are often Gnostics who have not glimpsed The Light yet.

Juan
P.S. I need a tag line...


Last edited by seekerjuan on Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : type)

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Re: Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by Thoughts01 on Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:09 am

You will always find it challenging to win an argument with a fundamentalist. Unlike the Gnostic view that is based on personal experience, knowledge, logic and evidence, the Orthodox has all of the answers in their book. They expect their faith to be challenged and will continue to pull you back to the book as proof. If the world contradicts their World View, the book, then it is the world that is the Great Deceiver. Their reaction to evolution, scientific cosmology, the age of the world, denying that the dinosaurs really existed are all symptoms of this. A Gnostic, aware of doctrines of error, will say that if my experience and gnosis contradict the book, the book is wrong. (See Pistis Sophia Ch. 134.)

You're dead on with that statement, it's always back to "THEIR" interpretation of the Bible. They're limited in their view as they are both blind and deaf, wrapped up in the self-glorifying darkness that has wrapped around their senses. All the world is filtered through this cloud of mystic europhia they have enshrouded themselves in. They are quite comfortable in this shroud as it always seems to agree with everything they think. "god" for them is little more than an agreeing bobble head imaginary friend to drag out as justification for their views of how the world SHOULD be. There's no talking or reasoning them out of it...

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Ways to Salvation

Post by seekerjuan on Mon May 04, 2009 12:04 pm

Just a little more information on the question of multiple paths to salvation.

Yehosua instituted three paths to Salvation.

The first is what we call Gnosis or seeking:

Then He said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, 'Friend, lend me three
loaves; for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him';
and from inside he answers and says, 'Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed;
I cannot get up and give you anything.'
"I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
"For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
"Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
"Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?", Luke 11:5-13


"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
"Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?
"Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!, Matthew 7:7-11

The Second path is faith

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word,
and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life,
and does not come into judgment, but has passed
out of death into life., John 5:24

The third path is good works

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a
stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
"The King will answer and say to them,
'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.", Matthew 25:31-46

So the question to those who say the only path is faith is: Was Yehosua just wasting His breath with the other two discourses, as the only way is faith?

Catholics mostly accept the three paths. That is why you see so many Catholic Universities and interest in higher education. Catholics accept evolution and that the Bible is somewhat mythological, that is, intended to teach a spiritual rather than literal truth. You also see Catholic Charities caring for the elderly, sick and those in prison. There is also, of course, all the creeds, Cannon Law, etc. which is the path of Faith.

Hope this helps,

Juan

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Why did Yehosua have to die

Post by seekerjuan on Mon May 04, 2009 12:58 pm

This is one of my pet peeves with the Evangelicals. They constantly screech "Jesus died for your sins!" This is such an oversimplification and technically wrong!

Yehosua forgave sins before He died. He instituted the sacraments of Baptism and Repentance for the forgiveness of sins before His death. There was no need for Him to die for our sins, this was already taken care of years before His death. What he needed was to help spread The Word.

Now, what does the Bible say as to why Jesus had to die?


And Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
"He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.
"If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Jesus Foretells His Death

"Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. ", John 12:23-27
Yehosua died, so that He might glorify God and receive His Glorified Body. He fully knew this from the beginning... Why? So that He could open the eyes of His disciples and teach them how to forgive sins, raise the dead, heal the sick and and teach the three paths to Salvation. That is, do what He did before He died.

Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high' (Luke 24: 36-49, RSV-CE).

That is he had to show His disciples how to preach Baptism, Repentance, and the Promise of the Father (the three paths to salvation). He had to be in His Glorified state to do this, otherwise He would have done it before He died...

OK, now let's time warp back to the 4th Century and look at what Orthodox Christianity taught at that time:

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. (No mention of sin here...)

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. (Has a Gnostic sound to it, doesn't it.. Very Happy )

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. (Ahh, there it is Baptism was for Sins, you know John the Baptist, before the Passion...)

So, this, in Orthodox terms, is why Yehosua had to die so that we could receive the message of salvation, not forgiveness itself, that was covered by Baptism and Repentence.

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One more thougt

Post by seekerjuan on Tue May 05, 2009 12:42 am

I want to underscore, that the fundamentalists equate 'Salvation' with 'Forgiveness of Sins'. They are not the same thing. Sins are obstacles to overcome in order to attain Salvation. But, just living a 'sinless' life or 'faith' by itself, does not guarantee Salvation. These are paths that can help one attain Salvation. Salvation is the entry into the Kingdom of the Father. Trust me a Satanist could fully believe in God and Christ, but few would consider him saved.

If you look closely at the discourse of the path of Good Works, you will notice that the righteous do not even have to recognize or even know Yehosua to be saved. It is through their righteous treatment of others that they are saved. The same is true of the 'Seeker'. They can find The Father without going through Christ, because the Father is the ultimate destination. (Don't tell a fundamentalist this, they will get out their stones... Very Happy )

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Re: Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by Thoughts01 on Tue May 05, 2009 10:32 pm

Question, how do you know you're on the Path???

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Re: Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by Admin on Wed May 06, 2009 7:10 am

Thoughts01 wrote:Question, how do you know you're on the Path???

Through real inner experiences (Light, etc.), intuition, and the usual condemnation/ridicule by religionists (Pharisees).

The fruits of experience on the path will prove its truth.

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

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Re: Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by seekerjuan on Wed May 06, 2009 10:20 am

Admin wrote:
Through real inner experiences (Light, etc.), intuition, and the usual condemnation/ridicule by religionists (Pharisees).

The fruits of experience on the path will prove its truth.

While, I might quibble about the Pharisees, I agree with Bob. If you look into the story of virtually every Saint, Holy Man, Prophet, Shaman, etc. You will find that their calling began with some deep spiritual experience. These are usually described as visions, illnesses, or near death experiences. No matter which path you are on, you eventually come to this point. This is always the true starting point. Once one has this experience, other experiences, usually less profound, will reinforce the Light of the Path. You will know and, so, become much more Gnostic in your approach.

As to the value of the three paths, each is valid and can bring you to your Spiritual Experience, but each has it's own danger.

While the path of faith may seem the easiest, it is not. You see, while faith the size of a mustard seed will bring you to the spiritual experience, doubt of the same size will prevent the experience. The mind then play acts to convince itself it does believe and the spirit is lost. (a la Pharisee.. Very Happy )

The path of good works is also easy to loose. A simple selfish motive can destroy all of the good intentions in any action. But again, as demonstrated by St. Francis of Assisi. good works, instead of faith, can bring the spiritual experience.

Gnosis, on the other hand, is, for some, much easier, there is no pretense, you follow your intellect. You are free to ask questions, to explore within and without. However, you must seek honestly, you must honestly want to know, you must have honest, humble and pure intentions. You must seek to improve your understanding of the Light, with no regard for yourself. If you seek with your heart and mind open to the Truth, you will eventually receive your Gnostic Awakening. But, if you do not seek honestly, if you are just play acting, then you will receive nothing.

Again, this is just too much for most of our Fundy brothers and sisters to take in. We can only provide a light to them by showing them the path we follow in our daily lives.

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Re: Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by Thoughts01 on Thu May 07, 2009 6:28 am

I'm not a big fan of Dreams and Visions, while I'm not saying that they are not true or do not happen, they should be used as an inner guide for yourself rather than proof of some kind to be revealed to others. I'm not big on reciting scripture but in the story of Samuel (I believe, once again I'm going on memory) the High Priest of the King also said he spoke to "god" and did his work. Evil will use the same lines of logic in order to validate itself just as those who follow the light. It' wants to keep it's followers wrapped in sweet darkness and off the path, into oblivion...

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Re: Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by seekerjuan on Thu May 07, 2009 1:24 pm

Thoughts01 wrote:I'm not a big fan of Dreams and Visions, while I'm not saying that they are not true or do not happen, they should be used as an inner guide for yourself rather than proof of some kind to be revealed to others.

I am truly sorry, Thoughts, I thought you were asking how an individual would know if they, themselves, were on the path, not how others would know. I didn't mean to imply that these experiences should be used for any other purpose than as a guide to knowing if you, yourself, were on the path.

I am also sorry, if my sharing of my experience here came across as anything more than my own personal seeking to make sense of my path. It's not something I can talk about with most people. I found some support here that I really needed...

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Re: Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by Thoughts01 on Thu May 07, 2009 10:33 pm

seekerjuan wrote:
Thoughts01 wrote:I'm not a big fan of Dreams and Visions, while I'm not saying that they are not true or do not happen, they should be used as an inner guide for yourself rather than proof of some kind to be revealed to others.

I am truly sorry, Thoughts, I thought you were asking how an individual would know if they, themselves, were on the path, not how others would know. I didn't mean to imply that these experiences should be used for any other purpose than as a guide to knowing if you, yourself, were on the path.

I am also sorry, if my sharing of my experience here came across as anything more than my own personal seeking to make sense of my path. It's not something I can talk about with most people. I found some support here that I really needed...

Oh no, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I agree with you on alot of points. My point more centers around those who seek to decieve others and use their "dreams" as some kind of proof that people need to do what they say, that "their's" is the one true way. I do believe people can recieve "visions", but the whole basis and inconsistancy of man's nature itself can make it difficult who's recieving "prophetic visions" and "visitations", and those who are simply experencing "delusions of grandure". One parable I've heard is "When people first see the Light of Creation, they are blinded by it. So taken back by it's grandure they stare and focus only on it, not the fact it was only there to Light the Path and their way." They become wrapped in the mysticism and the procedures of religion, that they are now "god's" personal envoy to the world and they are to spread it to as many people as possible. They stray off the Path and into the darkness of their own making, seeking all "evil", in every shadow, to confront and destroy, it's becomes very self-important. When you get these people into groups, they can do alot of damage. Have you heard the one about only 100,000 people or so are gonna be the only people who get into heaven? Every single one of those people are convinced that "they" are gonna be in that 100,000 (even though they may be part of millions that believe that). Dreams and Visions can and are used the same way by those who are blind and deaf, seeing only what they want to see, hearing only what they want to hear. When you personally and in all honesty reveal your spiritual dreams and visions, one of two things will happen with these people. Either "YOUR having delusions and need to come to church to be "saved"." or " Uh.... yeah, yeah, I do that to, I have those exact same dreams, yeah. But since you don't come to church, yours are false or you're just copying us." Now you've given them more fodder to add to their darkness, and the fact that yours are genuine only adds to their darkness and muddles the conversation on who's wrong or right. With Gnostics, it is a personal experience and the journey that matters, it is humility that you must take each step. With the Orthodox, is all about mysticism and procedure...

edited because I left out a word or two...

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Re: Fundamentalist Dogma

Post by seekerjuan on Fri May 08, 2009 10:12 am

Thanks Thoughts, I was afraid I was coming across the wrong way.

I agree with your assessment. It's really sad they have to act the way they do...

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