Ok. What exactly is thinking.

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Ok. What exactly is thinking.

Post by Lig on Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:18 am

It's all well and good to say just experience without thinking, but I'm having a problem. What worth is experience without comparing it to other experiences. I can see learning to control your mind, but as your standing in a nice summer breeze experiencing it later to forget it because you didn't think about it what worth is it? While standing there wouldn't it be good and natural to compare it to the breeze from yesterday? How can one even say this is a nice warm breeze without thinking "Hmmm. This nice warm breeze feels so good."

When I think of not thinking, I think of meditation. In that case there is only internal experience, then standing back to watch what your being does is still thinking about it.

I'm feeling really dense and thickheaded here....

Somewhere on the forum early on I mentioned something to the effect of my mind hides things from me. Anyway, I think I have evolved that thought just now to that my mind hides ideas from me when I try to think about them. It seems as though I can only think in the here and now and it takes great concentration to think of anything else. When I try to think of abstract thoughts its sort of like trying to look at one of those tiny stars that disappears when you look at it and you have to look out of the corner of your eye to see it. I have to pretend I'm not looking in order to see anything but what is here.

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Re: Ok. What exactly is thinking.

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:04 am

To be honest, Lig, There is nothing wrong with thought, in fact you want real THOUGHT, but the problem is no one thinks. And this is one of the most important things to understand. We get no credit for mechanicalness, because then it is not us who thinks but IT that thinks and IT is possessed by the world. It becomes like a engine. A Engine doesn't start by itself, something outside of it starts it. And when it is on, it continues until it runs out of gas.

As it is revealed to me, again, thought is not the problem, the problem is that we are divided within ourselves and are unconscious of the movements that happen in us. So Original thought is what you want, but the problem of the situation is that no one thinks -- their thoughts is not their own. I believe the objective of what Gnosticgirl is attempting to do is to get you and others to see what consciousness IS NOT, to see what ones ordinary existence is, which is mechanical -- we are organic machines. And this must be seen, it is important to see it and to impartially observe it, in order to record this inner working. It is through seeing what consciousness is not that one can come to develop conscious-awareness.

In order to have consciousness it is very important to first see that you, in the beginning, do not have it. Then there is a real prospect of growing it. If one thinks they have something already then what is the point of working to get it? See?


Last edited by The_Passerby on Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Adding another sentence)

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Re: Ok. What exactly is thinking.

Post by Lig on Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:26 am

I think I am coming to the idea that I have little to no experience with unconsciousness....

Maybe that's why I never have fit in...
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Re: Ok. What exactly is thinking.

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:48 am

The thing is "unconsciousness" is really a persons entire life, only at very limited moments in their life have they been conscious and often it is because of a shock. It is a really sincere look at ones self and their life. It just means that you have yet to see yourself outside of the image you feel you are. If you observe it, you will recognize that in your natural organic state that you live on autopilot.

Another simple exercise would be to try to consciously breath throughout your day without stopping (while you do your daily activities in life, work, take care of the kids, go out and about around others, or whatever you do) -- or maintain a certain word or phrase in your mind for a day, being completely honest with yourself. You will see how at some point you mechanically lose attention, you lose conscious-awareness of your aim. With the breathing you will notice how your breathing goes back to its regular mechanical breathing by nature -- and you will see how it all functions without "you". Your body, mind and the movement of energy in you is all mechanical normally -- it becomes quite clear that we are organic machines. If you have ever had periods of starvation, you will notice that the body will even consume from itself if not given food. It is like a plant -- and it works at a very limited spectrum of life and existence, completely what is earth-bound.

When I had seen myself clearly, I saw the horror of the situation. Once you see it, it leaves upon you a quite different image of life and yourself.


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Re: Ok. What exactly is thinking.

Post by Lig on Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:10 am

I won't argue that my body is on autopilot. That's what it was designed for. I cannot think of breathing all day long as I have many other things to think about. I argue that my thoughts are on autopilot... Yes, I do think a lot, but there is a lot going on in a day...

So this is consciousness thing about being conscious of what your body is doing or being conscious of what is happening around you?

Let me give an example, I let my kids wander in the woods behind my house (to an extent) If I come to this decision because that's what my parents have done that would be unconsciousness. If I come to this decision because I have weighed what could happen against the probability of something horrible happening and am willing to risk it then that would be a conscious decision.

My friend won't let her kids leave her side on a hike. If she does this because that's what she should do (they are girls after all) then that would be an unconscious decision. If she does this because she has thought about the risk and decided that it's not worth it that would be a conscious decision.

We could both be making a conscious decision but still come to different conclusions right? Would you say this is an accurate description of conscious vs unconscious decision making?

We could take it a step further and say that my friend is not willing to risk her kids to an accident in the woods because protecting herself from the hassle/heartbreak of having her kids have an accident is more important that her kids learning to get along in the woods. If she hasn't thought about it like this then her decision is an organic machine just trying to protect itself. If she has thought this through then she is just consciously trying to mitigate risk. Perhaps it just boils down to what her priorities are. Is it more important to keep her kids safe for whatever reason or to let them learn about whatever they learn about in the woods. To each their own.

I can't judge her consciousness based on what she does unless I know the thinking behind it. Right?

Is this even close to what we're talking about?
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Re: Ok. What exactly is thinking.

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:25 am

I won't argue that my body is on autopilot. That's what it was designed for. I cannot think of breathing all day long as I have many other things to think about. I argue that my thoughts are on autopilot... Yes, I do think a lot, but there is a lot going on in a day...

You are putting "thinking" into too many places (even putting thinking as remembering! -- memory is not thought). The point of this exercise, if done is to show you that you can not do it, because you will lose your aim. Even if you tried desperately, it would not be possible. And it is to such a degree that you may come to a point where you think you are breathing consciously but at further investigation of the body you will see you have stopped breathing consciously minuets ago, yet you thought you were. It would show you a taste of what sleep is. Sleep is unconsciousness. And ones life is lived in sleep. And the problem is because your "will" is not a whole, it is divided, you have many wills because you have many in you that could be called equally "I". What you call, "having many other things to think about" is actually the reality that naturally we do not have a whole "will" and this is because we are a multiplicity on many levels of our physical being. it is expressly because, as you said, "there is a lot going on in a day.." that you can not maintain yourself or an GOAL. The things going on draw your attention mechanically and different "I's" take over -- things are always HAPPENING and people let the happenings OUTSIDE OF THEM move them, instead of being present and moving themselves. This is also why no one really does anything, but things just occur. As a person you live in your last shifting moved by forces, influences.

At different moments you shift to a different "I" which has a different perspective, correlates to a different external stimulus/vibration which it is attached to, and has a different want. Now this is not to say you can't have real thought, but at some point it will become mechanical. Because thing external to yourself, you have an set association with it. To evolve consciousness it takes energy, but our energy is loss in the mechanical/malfunctioning work of our bodies and mind. The natural normal work of the body, mind, emotions and all associated with our unconscious manifestations DO NOT help our endeavors towards what people would call enlightenment, in fact they work against it normally -- we lose all our energy. There are many things that happen when you are conscious.

Breathing consciously is artificial to the work of the body. When you breathe consciously, that is breathe in a different rhythm that is natural to the body you use your muscles and organ in a different way that the body does not do naturally do. This is why it is difficult. Breathing can be and is one of the essential aspects of inducing conscious-awareness, it helps a bunch and it is essential to connecting to your Soul, IN LIFE.

The only way a decision is conscious is if one can see the movement in themselves -- see the various parts that deal with discernment and evaluate the multi-dimensionality of the moment (the other perspectives) and make the decision. You see what is important to understand is that everything you do, is done by a different personality "I". Decision making is often shifting through this fragmentation and often ones decision is just the result of their past, people don't really see the moment or what is happening, it is more so a knee jerk response -- a conscious decision you SEE the moment and the choices that can be had, at least to your ability to. But a conscious decision or choice doesn't mean that you have SELF CONSCIOUSNESS of your whole physical being. It is a different quality, what I am referring to is beyond this.

Have you ever experienced a death in your family or friend when you were a teen or young adult? Consciousness is what you felt for the first time when you heard of the unfortunate news -- at that moment everything STOPPED. You could not move and it was almost out of body. You felt yourself then, the wind upon yourself, the feeling of blood rushing through the body, the heart beat, your breathing, your legs, arm, face -- you saw your thought, don't have mind chatter, you felt your emotion when you walked it felt entirely different -- you feel every moment, hence it feels out of body.

IMO

Maybe this will help, maybe it won't. But I have exceeded my quota today -- did not mean to write this much.


Last edited by The_Passerby on Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added more information)

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Re: Ok. What exactly is thinking.

Post by Lig on Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:51 am

Thank you for your detailed information passerby. For the record you know what you know Smile It doesn't offend me at all when you share your information.

I'm still processing most of what you wrote, but the last part I can respond to. I have experienced death a few times, but it's not like that for me. I have a momentary sadness, but it is very quickly replaced by a sort of excitement that lasts for a few days. Not that I'm glad their gone, more like I absorbed some of their energy or something. Like the excited rush to get everything in the shed before it starts pouring rain. It's an excitement at the change and excitement for their opportunity I guess. I still don't understand it. I do miss them, but that's longer lasting and not really accompanied by sadness, just a loneliness.

This excitement is a strange excitement. It happens before something bad is about to happen too. It's almost like the bad is the last resort to bring me back down to earth. During this time of excitement I notice everything, but nothing bothers me. It's like the bad of the world doesn't even happen. I can think of nothing bad, or even see anything bad. I know it's there, but it doesn't cause the proper bad emotion to go along with it.

I can maintain this excited stage if I've had enough rest a lot of the time. It's been a few months since I've had it though. I guess the last time was when my grandmother in law died just after Thanksgiving.

Would this excited time correspond with the everything stopping moment people talk about? I've heard this before, but never really understood it.
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Re: Ok. What exactly is thinking.

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:56 am

There is a part that can observe in us -- and must take on this duty, like the Alpha dog does its pack. This all has a point to it or an objective.

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Re: Ok. What exactly is thinking.

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:59 am

Lig wrote:Thank you for your detailed information passerby. For the record you know what you know Smile It doesn't offend me at all when you share your information.

I'm still processing most of what you wrote, but the last part I can respond to. I have experienced death a few times, but it's not like that for me. I have a momentary sadness, but it is very quickly replaced by a sort of excitement that lasts for a few days. Not that I'm glad their gone, more like I absorbed some of their energy or something. Like the excited rush to get everything in the shed before it starts pouring rain. It's an excitement at the change and excitement for their opportunity I guess. I still don't understand it. I do miss them, but that's longer lasting and not really accompanied by sadness, just a loneliness.

This excitement is a strange excitement. It happens before something bad is about to happen too. It's almost like the bad is the last resort to bring me back down to earth. During this time of excitement I notice everything, but nothing bothers me. It's like the bad of the world doesn't even happen. I can think of nothing bad, or even see anything bad. I know it's there, but it doesn't cause the proper bad emotion to go along with it.

I can maintain this excited stage if I've had enough rest a lot of the time. It's been a few months since I've had it though. I guess the last time was when my grandmother in law died just after Thanksgiving.

Would this excited time correspond with the everything stopping moment people talk about? I've heard this before, but never really understood it.

Well people can be affected by death differently given their past, I was giving an example. But that appears as though the emotion passed into a sort of joy. An important aspect to things is the transmutation of emotion. If one moves their emotion to a more completed state, and feel it, it can pass over into bringing abut a higher one, a sort of joy.

Death is a shock and it still invokes consciousness to some degree. When death happened, it was a different type of shock for me. I understood death and what happens after it growing up, I saw ghost as a youth. I did not get sad about things (but I did empathize with the pain of others and I would receive their impressions and that was my shock, to feel their condition). This is good if it is the result of understanding, that it does not produce in you sadness. But it is bad if you do not get sad because it just isn't how you react. Because it is more so dealing with suppression. One must feel their emotions, emotions not felt until they dissipate are emotions that become coarser matter in the body... the feeling of emotion is essential.

And "bad" things that occur are often the only times when people are alive. And that may sound weird. It is often the bad experiences that we remember the most, the bad and the good but cause their pain. The bad bring a sort of struggle in oneself or within others around them. Much opportunity is there, if one allows it.

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Re: Ok. What exactly is thinking.

Post by Lig on Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:21 pm

It came to me this morning why I'm having such a hard time with the unconscious/conscious thing. Ok, back to being mechanical. It seems to me that everyday things like breathing are mechanical and happen unconsciously. We don't have to think about them for a reason. It's not that we are unconscious if we can't think about our breathing for a whole day, surely anyone that didn't have anything else to do for a day could. Are we supposed to be able to concentrate on our breathing while we are talking or driving or explaining, or, in order to be consciously doing things are we supposed to be concentrating on the task at hand relegating the automatic things to the mechanical body.
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Re: Ok. What exactly is thinking.

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:16 am

Lig wrote:It came to me this morning why I'm having such a hard time with the unconscious/conscious thing. Ok, back to being mechanical. It seems to me that everyday things like breathing are mechanical and happen unconsciously. We don't have to think about them for a reason. It's not that we are unconscious if we can't think about our breathing for a whole day, surely anyone that didn't have anything else to do for a day could. Are we supposed to be able to concentrate on our breathing while we are talking or driving or explaining, or, in order to be consciously doing things are we supposed to be concentrating on the task at hand relegating the automatic things to the mechanical body.

I was only using breathing as an example. But not being conscious of your breath is very much so an unconscious work -- anything that you are not aware of is unconscious, mechanical. What you say above IS OK if you are not seeking after anything -- our whole body must be transformed in vibration in order to support the higher levels of being. When we were babies we were completely conscious of our bodies, our breathing (observe a baby), conscious of every sound, every image, everything -- but as time went on we ever so slowly went to sleep to these things because our parents didn't know any better and through imitation, personality becoming strengthened over our authentic-essence-self we became malfunctioning machines who are immersed in their lower natures, bound by this organic limitation as earth-bound in consciousness where our thoughts always turn back to the earth, we only have illusion and never bring things to completion, we have the disease of tomorrow -- our energy is loss at an abundant rate so that we can never expand our consciousness and to make our body a transformation vessel, among other things.

Breath is very important, if you have looked into meditation, why do you think breathing is so important? When you breath in a certain manner you are moving the energy in the body, running it in a way that is artificial to its normal mechanical work. There is a lot about breath that is necessary for us to understand. In the ancient world, those who were developed mystics could live on breath alone. Breath is a food. I am trying to keep this as basic as I can, because anything beyond this would not help.

The body does a lot of things mechanical -- the body, mind, your emotions... etc etc. It is always working entirely without your will or consciousness. But you need it to work for your endeavors, you must become the leader and direct the movements. Some things do not need to be changed, some do as it is important to use them consciously for your personal WORK.

Another problem is thinking. The mind takes on the language of the ideal, it takes it in, and aspects of mind must be won over for the ideal. But after that when it comes to breath it is about building the association, or the artificial "remembering" in the body itself -- for instance my body breaths in a different way, a way that is geared towards a certain internal movement and I have done this, but it is not yet complete. However, I would just say one should merely try to be conscious of their breath in the beginning -- NOT TO TRY TO CHANGE ANYTHING unless you know, definitely, the workings of your organic condition.


Last edited by The_Passerby on Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:20 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added more information)

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