IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

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IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Admin on Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:56 pm

The following passage clearly indicates the necessity of a contemporary 'physical' living Spiritual Teacher / Apostle, for the actual transmition of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 8:15-19 "When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had merely been baptized into the ['exoteric'] name of the Lord: 'Jesus'.* Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the Apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit'."
* Just as Christians are today!

Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding Very Happy


Last edited by Admin on Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Need for a teacher?

Post by BelzeBob on Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:36 pm

Hello Admin!

"Does this not clearly prove (to those who
believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary,
living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to
receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?"

Let me begin with the last. Laying on of hands? I don't think so. I don't think that's necessary at all and I don't understand how that could work.

Let me state my understanding of the subject. What we need is accurate information about "the way to Heaven". And this information has to be very precise and complete. What we call a "Master" or a "Conscious Being? is such a man that possesses this information, this knowledge. Not just in the theoretical sense, but he knows this knowledge to be true. It is not only his knowledge, but his consciousness, his being and his understanding. And he is able to present the knowledge with his being. That is, he can demonstrate the knowledge and turn it into practice. And he has very great ability to be a very good guide for each of his students as he can see what each one needs. He is also so determined and disciplined that he is able to always practice what he preaches. Be strong, be responsible and never give up on his work.

Still, a former student of his or someone who has learnt the teaching in a complete and unaltered form can also be a good guide for a seeker of the truth. Provided that he lets the teaching be intact and not add or subtract anything to/from it.

So much also depends upon how intelligent the student is. And how much effort he makes. It doesn't help if Jesus Christ is your teacher if you're a lazy slob. It's your work and nobody can do it for you.

In essence, the teacher does two things:

1. Present the truth, the knowledge.
2. Make the conditions for the student's development as good as possible.

(I don't think laying on of hands make any difference the one way or the other. Other than for the purpose of healing. But I don't think that's what you meant.)

greetings,
BB
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:03 am

BelzeBob wrote:Hello Admin!

"Does this not clearly prove (to those who
believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary,
living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to
receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?"

Let me begin with the last. Laying on of hands? I don't think so. I don't think that's necessary at all and I don't understand how that could work.

Let me state my understanding of the subject. What we need is accurate information about "the way to Heaven". And this information has to be very precise and complete. What we call a "Master" or a "Conscious Being? is such a man that possesses this information, this knowledge. Not just in the theoretical sense, but he knows this knowledge to be true. It is not only his knowledge, but his consciousness, his being and his understanding. And he is able to present the knowledge with his being. That is, he can demonstrate the knowledge and turn it into practice. And he has very great ability to be a very good guide for each of his students as he can see what each one needs. He is also so determined and disciplined that he is able to always practice what he preaches. Be strong, be responsible and never give up on his work.

Still, a former student of his or someone who has learnt the teaching in a complete and unaltered form can also be a good guide for a seeker of the truth. Provided that he lets the teaching be intact and not add or subtract anything to/from it.

So much also depends upon how intelligent the student is. And how much effort he makes. It doesn't help if Jesus Christ is your teacher if you're a lazy slob. It's your work and nobody can do it for you.

So you mean that intelligence is a requirement for Spiritual Enlightenment (do you use the term Spiritual?). What about those who are not so 'bright'? I agree that work is a very important part of the process. I think that is why religion is so popular ~ no real work required.

In essence, the teacher does two things:

1. Present the truth, the knowledge.
2. Make the conditions for the student's development as good as possible.

(I don't think laying on of hands make any difference the one way or the other. Other than for the purpose of healing. But I don't think that's what you meant.)

greetings,
BB

What I mean by the "laying on of hands" is that there are (in my Master's teaching) certain techniques to be used in meditation which require practical "one on one" demonstration.

PLU Very Happy
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by BelzeBob on Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:53 pm

Dear Admin

So you mean that intelligence is a requirement for Spiritual Enlightenment (do you use the term Spiritual?). What about those who are not so 'bright'? I agree that work is a very important part of the process. I think that is why religion is so popular ~ no real work required.

(The term Spiritual Enlightenment works fine for me. Or simply "enlightenment", "becoming conscious", "becoming a Conscious Being" or "achieving Unity". There can be more ways to say this as well in the 4W tradition.)

There are different kinds of intelligence. In the 4W we speak less of intelligence and more of "development of functions" or development of being. In some people their thinking function is more developed, in others the feeling function f.ex. Or some may have a very active mind, but a lazy body. Or an active body, but a lazy mind. Or a dull emotional function. A strong being, but a weak knowledge. Or a strong knowledge, but a weak being. If we would add up all of a man's sides and different functions we would get a kind of "average" which we could then say is his level of intelligence.



But to simplify things; As we know, some people are very bright and some are not bright at all. Using ordinary language we can safely say that for someone who "isn't bright" this work is very difficult.

What I mean by the "laying on of hands" is that there are (in my Master's teaching) certain techniques to be used in meditation which require practical "one on one" demonstration.

PLU Very Happy

OK. Absolutely. One-on-one demonstration/instruction is extremely important. But I don't think it has to be by the teacher in person. (Anyway, if it's a large school/group or many groups spread over a large geographical area - this will be close to impossible.) In the Fourth Way we say that everyone who knows more than yourself is your teacher. And when you begin to know more, you have to teach those that know less.

Oh oh. Bear with me. I'm not so good with the fonts and so on. But I'll try to learn :-)

BB
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Admin on Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:41 pm

BelzeBob wrote:
Admin wrote:So you mean that intelligence is a requirement for Spiritual Enlightenment (do you use the term Spiritual?). What about those who are not so 'bright'? I agree that work is a very important part of the process. I think that is why religion is so popular ~ no real work required.

The term Spiritual Enlightenment works fine for me. Or simply "enlightenment", "becoming conscious", "becoming a Conscious Being" or "achieving Unity". There can be more ways to say this as well in the 4W tradition.

There are different kinds of intelligence. In the 4W we speak less of intelligence and more of "development of functions" or development of being. In some people their thinking function is more developed, in others the feeling function f.ex. Or some may have a very active mind, but a lazy body. Or an active body, but a lazy mind. Or a dull emotional function. A strong being, but a weak knowledge. Or a strong knowledge, but a weak being. If we would add up all of a man's sides and different functions we would get a kind of "average" which we could then say is his level of intelligence.

But to simplify things; As we know, some people are very bright and some are not bright at all. Using ordinary language we can safely say that for someone who "isn't bright" this work is very difficult.

What I was really trying to ascertain is if the 4W system (if that is the right term) requires intellectual study (e.g. books) and a reasonable education - at least to a good standard of literacy?

BelzeBob wrote:
Admin wrote:What I mean by the "laying on of hands" is that there are (in my Master's teaching) certain techniques to be used in meditation which require practical "one on one" demonstration.

OK. Absolutely. One-on-one demonstration/instruction is extremely important. But I don't think it has to be by the teacher in person. (Anyway, if it's a large school/group or many groups spread over a large geographical area - this will be close to impossible.) In the Fourth Way we say that everyone who knows more than yourself is your teacher. And when you begin to know more, you have to teach those that know less.

OK. This, I presume, is why Jesus chose 12 Apostles ~ as teachers / initiators. My Master also chooses 'special' helpers (i.e. initiators). Of course every disciple can help in teaching (or propagating), but in order to pass on the initiation, one must be authorized/chosen by the Master.

PLU Very Happy


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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by BelzeBob on Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:33 pm

Hi Admin!

What I was really try to ascertain is if the 4W system (if that is the right term) requires intellectual study (e.g. books) and a reasonable education - at least to a good standard of literacy?

The 4W doesn't really need many books or much reading, but it is a very large system with very many sides to study. So there's a very big intellectual aspect to it. The system takes a very long time to learn, even just the theory.

But intellectual study also goes side by side with what is called development of Being - that's the "practical" side of man. His abilities, his discipline, capacity and so on. Not what he knows, but what he can do. The emotional aspect is also very important. And there a more developed emotional function makes up for a less developed intellect.

Is it good to in general be well-educated? Yes. At least a man has to grasp the concept of the teaching, how it differs from other teachings and so on. He must have some idea about what philosophy, science, religion, occultism and so on are about. Later on when he begins to study with other students he learns the "work language" which is very different from ordinary language in that every single word just has 1 specific meaning and no other. Knowing this language, it is possible for students to communicate their thoughts with very great precision. This language, like the system really re-defines everything a man has ever heard before. And in a way replaces the need for reading endlessly many books.

But in the 4W we spend very little time reading books, really.

OK. This, I presume, is why Jesus chose 12 Apostles ~ as teachers / initiators. My Master also chooses 'special' helpers (i.e. initiators). Of course every disciple can help in teaching (or propagating), but in order to pass on the initiation, one must be authorized/chosen by the Master.

Basically we agree here.

It'd be interesting for me if you could say something more about your Teacher (/Master) and "your" (/his) system. Does it have something to do with Gnosticism or Christianity? From the name of this forum I'd guess so...?

Greetings,
BB
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Admin on Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:02 am

BelzeBob wrote:It'd be interesting for me if you could say something more about your Teacher (/Master) and "your" (/his) system. Does it have something to do with Gnosticism or Christianity? From the name of this forum I'd guess so...?

Greetings,
BB

OK. My Masters teachings are very very simple. In fact it is not realy a "teaching" at all, it is a revelatory initiation into the Mysteries of the Spirit, i.e. Gnosis. There is nothing intellectual to learn ~ no books or other materials at all. In fact, before initiation, the preparation process requires one to 'unlearn' all the junk and indoctrination which has been crammed into one's mind, and become truly humble and open-minded. This is precisely how I understand the saying of Jesus about becoming like "little children" in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus is it available to all, the uneducated and illiterate included.

The results of this meditation may be read in my posts in the "MYSTIC EXPERIENCE" forum, i.e. http://gnosis.forumotion.com/the-mystic-experience-f6/

PLU Very Happy
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by BelzeBob on Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:39 pm

Admin

OK! I shall read :-)

BB
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by angelfire on Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:26 am

Admin wrote:The following passage clearly indicates the necessity of a contemporary 'physical' living Spiritual Teacher / Apostle, for the actual transmition of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 8:15-19 "When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had merely been baptized into the ['exoteric'] name of the Lord: 'Jesus'.* Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the Apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit'."
* Just as Christians are today!

Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding Very Happy

Sorry Bob but I have to disagree with you. I am living proof that one does not need any outside help to realize the Divinity within.

What initiations are you talking about? I know of 6, with a possibility of 7. I would like to hear your take on them.

peace

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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Admin on Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:00 am

angelfire wrote:
Admin wrote:The following passage clearly indicates the necessity of a contemporary 'physical' living Spiritual Teacher / Apostle, for the actual transmition of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 8:15-19 "When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had merely been baptized into the ['exoteric'] name of the Lord: 'Jesus'.* Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the Apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit'."
* Just as Christians are today!

Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding Very Happy

Sorry Bob but I have to disagree with you. I am living proof that one does not need any outside help to realize the Divinity within.

What initiations are you talking about? I know of 6, with a possibility of 7. I would like to hear your take on them.

The initiation I am talking about reveals the Mystic 'NAME' (or Logos, Primordial Vibration), 'LIGHT', 'SOUND' (or 'Voice'), and 'SUSTENANCE' (or Manna, Spiritual Food).

These experiences are described in my posts in the "MYSTIC EXPERIENCE" forum, i.e. http://gnosis.forumotion.com/the-mystic-experience-f6/

PLU Very Happy
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Pila on Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:11 pm

Admin wrote:The following passage clearly indicates the necessity of a contemporary 'physical' living Spiritual Teacher / Apostle, for the actual transmition of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 8:15-19 "When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had merely been baptized into the ['exoteric'] name of the Lord: 'Jesus'.* Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the Apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit'."
* Just as Christians are today!

Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding Very Happy

Yes I do have to lay Hands on them in order for them to SEE the Holy Image of God.

Yes I do have to teach them LIFE first.
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Admin on Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:53 am

Pila wrote:Yes I do have to lay Hands on them in order for them to SEE the Holy Image of God.

Yes I do have to teach them LIFE first.

Are you actually claiming to be a chosen and genuine Spiritual MASTER (i.e. like Yehoshua or Moses)?

PLU Very Happy
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by BelzeBob on Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:45 am

Admin wrote:
angelfire wrote:

Sorry Bob but I have to disagree with you. I am living proof that one does not need any outside help to realize the Divinity within.

What initiations are you talking about? I know of 6, with a possibility of 7. I would like to hear your take on them.



PLU Very Happy

Hello!

What do you mean?
Rolling Eyes BB
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Pila on Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:54 am

Admin wrote:
Pila wrote:Yes I do have to lay Hands on them in order for them to SEE the Holy Image of God.

Yes I do have to teach them LIFE first.

Are you actually claiming to be a chosen and genuine Spiritual MASTER (i.e. like Yehoshua or Moses)?

PLU Very Happy

I AM the Son of God and That is all. Yehoshua and Moses did do what I AM doing and thats Great, they are great master Teachers and they are my Brothers, and they where not the only ones, Paul is a Good teacher. Too many great teachers two count. If you can See the Holy Image anytime you like, and can pass the Light two others by touch, then you are a brother too. It is a Great gift from God to give LIFE to God's children.

God is LIFE, or Life would not be.

Jesus did the will of God, He gave LIFE to God's children.

Giving LIFE to God's children is the Law of God. Only a son of God can give LIFE Everlasting.
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Admin on Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:01 am

Pila wrote:
Admin wrote:Are you actually claiming to be a chosen and genuine Spiritual MASTER (i.e. like Yehoshua or Moses)?

I AM the Son of God and That is all. Yehoshua and Moses did do what I AM doing and thats Great, they are great master Teachers and they are my Brothers, and they where not the only ones, Paul is a Good teacher. Too many great teachers two count. If you can See the Holy Image anytime you like, and can pass the Light two others by touch, then you are a brother too. It is a Great gift from God to give LIFE to God's children.

God is LIFE, or Life would not be.

Jesus did the will of God, He gave LIFE to God's children.

Giving LIFE to God's children is the Law of God. Only a son of God can give LIFE Everlasting.

May I ask you if you were initially taught / initiated by a Spiritual Master? and if so, what was your Master's name? or else how precisely did you achieve your position?

PLU Very Happy
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:33 am

Personally speaking it is not necessary in every circumstance. I say this because not everyone stands at the same development of another, we are all different in regards our movements back to the Primal Source, which lays in REST. Like a University of Experience we are measured to different capacities, all being related to our movements, successes, and triumpts through the laybirth of life which we develop under the encompassing Laws at this level, whether you call them archons or not, these are forces which work upon our mind and being, of which we must come to understand in order to utilize them to our own completion whether than being used by these Natural Laws mechanically. In this case since many are mechanical in their various bondages which are of this world some people are in need of external catalyst which or whom has the capacity to invoke them to draw within themselves, to guide them step by step into utlizing their own indwelling faculties of mind provide a further attuning to what is Divine within them, of which in that Authetic Self is the capacity to prove all things and learn the mysteries of the Inner Descent to know our Inner Ascent. So an external Guide will be a catalyst in helping you to cultivate yourself towards spiritual nourishment, helping you to stay afloat in consciousness and not sink back into your organic native element of mundaneness, which is depravity. But since what we are in this world is only a parcel out of a much bigger Cosmogony of Self, no it isn't necessary since all that you need abides within your individual Cosmogony. You don't need any external teachers whatsoever, since their is only one True Teacher and the degrees of such instructions exist as indwelling rungs which compose and constitute all that you are, of which you as the little self proceeded out of the reality of. Our True Source is within us and is Our Authentic Counterpart of Light (what people Call the Soul Self), you are to draw upon it and be nourished by its Light and Intellect as your one and only Teacher whose teachings you must reflect in all that you do, in order to manifest that Master in your vessel.

One should never rely on a external individual in regards a guru or etc, when you set others up as the source you draw from, you can become bound by their limitations, their opinions, and traditions which will/can invoke constructs upon the mind that will cling to their fragmented understanding (in other words become conditioned). All such things causes obstructions to growth becoming obstacles to connecting to the True Teacher in you. For if you are dependent on something outside of yourself which does not hold your life force and has not expressed you into this world, how much further are you away from the True Source of your being, which can set you up right towards Knowing Thy Self?

I, for one, never had a physical guide, at least not in this life. I on my own have experienced and came about things, then I eventually meant others whom were like me, whom could each individually affirm what I had experienced as having validity from their own encounters of the Indwelling realities of their Being, since they proved it within themselves, as I did.

Shalom

Ra.

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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Admin on Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:09 pm

The_Passerby wrote:Personally speaking it is not necessary in every circumstance. I say this because not everyone stands at the same development of another, we are all different in regards our movements back to the Primal Source, which lays in REST. Like a University of Experience we are measured to different capacities, all being related to our movements, successes, and triumpts through the laybirth of life which we develop under the encompassing Laws at this level, whether you call them archons or not, these are forces which work upon our mind and being, of which we must come to understand in order to utilize them to our own completion whether than being used by these Natural Laws mechanically. In this case since many are mechanical in their various bondages which are of this world some people are in need of external catalyst which or whom has the capacity to invoke them to draw within themselves, to guide them step by step into utlizing their own indwelling faculties of mind provide a further attuning to what is Divine within them, of which in that Authetic Self is the capacity to prove all things and learn the mysteries of the Inner Descent to know our Inner Ascent. So an external Guide will be a catalyst in helping you to cultivate yourself towards spiritual nourishment, helping you to stay afloat in consciousness and not sink back into your organic native element of mundaneness, which is depravity. But since what we are in this world is only a parcel out of a much bigger Cosmogony of Self, no it isn't necessary since all that you need abides within your individual Cosmogony. You don't need any external teachers whatsoever, since their is only one True Teacher and the degrees of such instructions exist as indwelling rungs which compose and constitute all that you are, of which you as the little self proceeded out of the reality of. Our True Source is within us and is Our Authentic Counterpart of Light (what people Call the Soul Self), you are to draw upon it and be nourished by its Light and Intellect as your one and only Teacher whose teachings you must reflect in all that you do, in order to manifest that Master in your vessel.

One should never rely on a external individual in regards a guru or etc, when you set others up as the source you draw from, you can become bound by their limitations, their opinions, and traditions which will/can invoke constructs upon the mind that will cling to their fragmented understanding (in other words become conditioned). All such things causes obstructions to growth becoming obstacles to connecting to the True Teacher in you. For if you are dependent on something outside of yourself which does not hold your life force and has not expressed you into this world, how much further are you away from the True Source of your being, which can set you up right towards Knowing Thy Self?

I, for one, never had a physical guide, at least not in this life. I on my own have experienced and came about things, then I eventually meant others whom were like me, whom could each individually affirm what I had experienced as having validity from their own encounters of the Indwelling realities of their Being, since they proved it within themselves, as I did.

Shalom

Ra.
Hi Passerby

I fully understand and appreciate what you have said. However, there is one question I would like to ask you. I will refer to one particular example - that of Yehoshua (although there are many more) - to demonstrate what I mean. My question is this, do you think Yehoshua came in a human body to act as a Teacher and Revealer / Initiator of Truth? and that He said that being initiated/baptized by Him was the only way (at that time) to enter the Spiritual Realm; and that He appointed 12 men ('Initiators'/'Apostles') to help Him with His task. Do you not think people in His day would should have followed Him as disciples? Or do you think He was telling them not to follow Him?

PLU Very Happy
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:14 am

Admin wrote:
The_Passerby wrote:Personally speaking it is not necessary in every circumstance. I say this because not everyone stands at the same development of another, we are all different in regards our movements back to the Primal Source, which lays in REST. Like a University of Experience we are measured to different capacities, all being related to our movements, successes, and triumpts through the laybirth of life which we develop under the encompassing Laws at this level, whether you call them archons or not, these are forces which work upon our mind and being, of which we must come to understand in order to utilize them to our own completion whether than being used by these Natural Laws mechanically. In this case since many are mechanical in their various bondages which are of this world some people are in need of external catalyst which or whom has the capacity to invoke them to draw within themselves, to guide them step by step into utlizing their own indwelling faculties of mind provide a further attuning to what is Divine within them, of which in that Authetic Self is the capacity to prove all things and learn the mysteries of the Inner Descent to know our Inner Ascent. So an external Guide will be a catalyst in helping you to cultivate yourself towards spiritual nourishment, helping you to stay afloat in consciousness and not sink back into your organic native element of mundaneness, which is depravity. But since what we are in this world is only a parcel out of a much bigger Cosmogony of Self, no it isn't necessary since all that you need abides within your individual Cosmogony. You don't need any external teachers whatsoever, since their is only one True Teacher and the degrees of such instructions exist as indwelling rungs which compose and constitute all that you are, of which you as the little self proceeded out of the reality of. Our True Source is within us and is Our Authentic Counterpart of Light (what people Call the Soul Self), you are to draw upon it and be nourished by its Light and Intellect as your one and only Teacher whose teachings you must reflect in all that you do, in order to manifest that Master in your vessel.

One should never rely on a external individual in regards a guru or etc, when you set others up as the source you draw from, you can become bound by their limitations, their opinions, and traditions which will/can invoke constructs upon the mind that will cling to their fragmented understanding (in other words become conditioned). All such things causes obstructions to growth becoming obstacles to connecting to the True Teacher in you. For if you are dependent on something outside of yourself which does not hold your life force and has not expressed you into this world, how much further are you away from the True Source of your being, which can set you up right towards Knowing Thy Self?

I, for one, never had a physical guide, at least not in this life. I on my own have experienced and came about things, then I eventually meant others whom were like me, whom could each individually affirm what I had experienced as having validity from their own encounters of the Indwelling realities of their Being, since they proved it within themselves, as I did.

Shalom

Ra.
Hi Passerby

I fully understand and appreciate what you have said. However, there is one question I would like to ask you. I will refer to one particular example - that of Yehoshua (although there are many more) - to demonstrate what I mean. My question is this, do you think Yehoshua came in a human body to act as a Teacher and Revealer / Initiator of Truth? and that He said that being initiated/baptized by Him was the only way (at that time) to enter the Spiritual Realm; and that He appointed 12 men ('Initiators'/'Apostles') to help Him with His task. Do you not think people in His day would should have followed Him as disciples? Or do you think He was telling them not to follow Him?

PLU Very Happy

It would be sort of difficult to ask me that question, since I hold the scriptures as esoteric allegories, metaphoric allusions of our tripartite (3 fold nature). While I do believe there was a historical Yeshua/Jesus however beyond that scriptures have a very thin measure of history that it builds upon, much of it isn't historical and is meant to be applied with that allusive Key of/to Knowledge/Gnosis. I doubt that Yeshua had literally 12 disciples, that is a numerical pattern that is a allusion of a esoteric reality of mind, which is also patterned on many levels. Now, in the stories which are presented, I would say that one can't Truly know the Truth unless to manifest Yeshua within him, and learn through the condition that Yeshua reflects in scripture.

Historically I believe he had disciples, and a disciple is a student, but it wasn't like that as far as I am seeing. I guide is sometimes necessary, but I doubt any Gnostic individual would call themselves Teacher,"Do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers (Matthew 23:8-12) But truly speaking, from a internal manner reflective of our realities of mind, "Yeshua" must bring the 12 together upon the mount and initiate them into the glories of the Light unified.

But again, I don't believe it is necessary to have a external Indivdual all the time, because of what we have indwelling within us, we have our own Teacher, or Educator of Light, which is why we have the power to prove all things apart from anyone since our True Authentic Self is alive and dwelling in Intellect and knowledge which far exceeds anyone in this world. We could not be "passerbys" if this was not case, since a passer by is sufficient unto her/himself apart from anyone else or any place else. In my experience, it is proven since I didn't read a single scripture or interact with a spiritual guide outside of what abides within me pretty much until 21, but even after that it wasn't till 23 that I began to interact with others who knew what I was saying, thus helping me to bring about a more coherent explanation.

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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Unprofitable Servant on Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:54 am

Hi Passerby,

The_Passerby wrote:
Historically I believe he had disciples, and a disciple is a student, but it wasn't like that as far as I am seeing. I guide is sometimes necessary, but I doubt any Gnostic individual would call themselves Teacher,"Do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers (Matthew 23:8-12) But truly speaking, from a internal manner reflective of our realities of mind, "Yeshua" must bring the 12 together upon the mount and initiate them into the glories of the Light unified.

But again, I don't believe it is necessary to have a external Indivdual all the time, because of what we have indwelling within us, we have our own Teacher, or Educator of Light, which is why we have the power to prove all things apart from anyone since our True Authentic Self is alive and dwelling in Intellect and knowledge which far exceeds anyone in this world. We could not be "passerbys" if this was not case, since a passer by is sufficient unto her/himself apart from anyone else or any place else. In my experience, it is proven since I didn't read a single scripture or interact with a spiritual guide outside of what abides within me pretty much until 21, but even after that it wasn't till 23 that I began to interact with others who knew what I was saying, thus helping me to bring about a more coherent explanation.

I agree that a contemporary master is not needed, and we should not become called master, teacher or anything like it. A guide who points one to seek God and to ask God for knowledge does not teach, because God will do the teaching. It is written that they shall be taught of God.

It is true that we need a living master, but Jesus has been raised from the realm of death and now lives. If we think that Jesus died and we are alive, we are using the carnal mind rather than our spiritual mind. The opposite is closer to the truth. The ancient gnostics knew he had long been nailed to the cross, but they called him the Living Christ, because they knew he was not dead but alive. And without the Living One, neither can we say that we are truly alive.

The prophet spoke of dry bones coming to life, and so it is, the dead truly will be raised and finally come to true life. What we sometimes think of life is often miserable, cruel and unhappy. It is not really life. True life is something far greater, and we should seek it.

Peace,
Mark
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A living master.

Post by abu njoroge on Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:11 pm

I believe one neads to have a living spiritual master if one wants to find the kingdom of God in the here and now. Past book knowledge can only take one so far. When one looks within and is spiritually ready the master will appear. The orthadox ways are fine for many. This is faith. However most following traditional religion usually have to wait until after this lifetime to have true contact with the Divine at a level of direct knowing which is beyond faith. Much of what I believe can be found in the book The path of the masters by Julian Johnson. My beliefs are similar to the sikk faith. I am an Eckist first. After that I am a unitarian and Gnostic christian. I say it this way because my faith is not easily described in words. I believe Gods spirit is alive and permeates every atom in existence. Sometimes one who is awake can hear its vibration and thus know one is always in Gods presence.

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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Iehi Aur on Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:40 am

I always found it a bit hard to accept that we were left with writings from hundreds or thousands of years ago that have been translated multiple times, and could have been mistranslated by translators that lacked spiritual understanding of the deeper meanings concealed in parable and mere words.

The church even said that Satan is the ultimate deciever when I was there, and I then thought that if so, how do you know that the ignorant or intentionally misleading have not permeated your teachings, so I feel that personal experience is a must, and what High being would condemn the blind for not choosing the convenient route of jumping on the train of blind belief and ceasing to seek, it must be up to us to discern and sift the mass of information and apply methods for experience.

I feel that anyone who has walked the road and reached higher places within would be the best to direct the wandering seeker to the level that they have themselves attained. I also go off of an inner feeling that has served me decently, I said decently because it is possible that it can be intertwined with outer notions recieved, as all I know of methods has come from books, and some notions may be unconsciously attained and well up to conscious thought as if my own.

The notion of a Master living today would be great, and I do keep my eye out for outer aid in this journey groping through the dark. I have seen a Light that was bright within, yet it now is a glimmering light in the inner darkness, and I cannot say that I reached any attainment that I am conscious of from it. I must continue on and think maybe that was a sign I am heading the right way but am not there yet.

It would make more sense that a Master is always present among men, and that we all have the seed within waiting to be cultivated by those who sincerely seek out Truth and Self knowledge. I lay no claim to Knowing it so, because to do so would be to decieve my self.

The Master in the flesh today would definitly make me feel that we are not merely left with the scraps from the hounds of organized religion and needing to discover secret books that they missed in there burning of all that may let man rise from the fall. It would only be fair to humanity to have an equal chance at salvation from the depths of this consumeristic materialistica.

Most books I have read by many great humans seem to have a bend on their own personal compilation of information in their incarnation, so I try to find the correspondances in methods and decscriptions of, to find a midway stance coupled with fruitful pratical application.

Also I entertain the notion that maybe we can be taught or truths revealed on higher planes of existence while we shut out our physical manifestation and move with more subtle bodies where the Eye can see, and the eyes cannot.

Also another thing about a living master, we could spend lots of time searching the world for an individual and these days may never find this Master in the mass populus of the world, so I hope that we could find within, the means of reaching the Logos incarnated or his/her more subtle Self with our more subtle Self.

I could ramble on and on, but the fact is atleast consciously I do not know. So I will live right and go within consistantly with sincere devotion and knock on every door I come to, and maybe that will eventually yield that which I seek.

I remember a saying I will repeat.

I have good news and I have bad news, the bad news is that we have lost the key to the door of truth, the good news is that it was never locked.

It may be a bit altered through my memory, but I think I caught the main meaning of it.

Peace:)
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Deva on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:39 am

Admin wrote:...Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

I have given this some thought and I think you may be right. I am not sure about the laying on of hands, but that the presence of a living spiritual master is necessary for some kind of transmission of the ability to see the truth. With exceptional Masters, they may have the power to convey some understanding through films or their written words but I can't think they could have quite the same impact.

Wish I could find one. Haven't yet. Maybe it almost takes a Master to recognise a Master, particularly in the southern U.S.
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Admin on Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:57 am

Deva wrote:
Admin wrote:...Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

I have given this some thought and I think you may be right. I am not sure about the laying on of hands, but that the presence of a living spiritual master is necessary for some kind of transmission of the ability to see the truth. With exceptional Masters, they may have the power to convey some understanding through films or their written words but I can't think they could have quite the same impact.

Wish I could find one. Haven't yet. Maybe it almost takes a Master to recognise a Master, particularly in the southern U.S.

All I can tell you is of my own experience - maybe it is not the same for all - but when I was earnestly seeking for the Truth, I was led to a Master. I look back at this and see everything coming together, and God leading me by the hand. It was not as though I could find the Master (I was not even consciously seeking one), but that I was led to the source. As the Scriptures all say: "seek and you will find" - or: God will reveal Himself to all who truly seek with an open mind ("like little children").

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Admin on Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:19 pm

Prism1111 wrote:It has taken me awhile to try to understand were everyone is coming from and going to with this Concept, idea, following, belief or the point at which ones "seek to draw himself from" I guess is the best difinition ayyy?
This consept is foreign to me , although its not really. needing a Physical Body of another to seek their own enlightenment

It always surprises me that so many find the idea of a living (contemporary) human Spiritual Teacher so strange - or even unnecessary. Did not EVERY religion throughout history come into being from the teachings of a great Spiritual Master - a human being?

Does not every religion expect the return of the Master on Earth at some time?

I know that the Jews expect Elijah to return, the Buddhists await Buddha, and the Christians patiently await Yehoshua.

So what is so strange about His arrival in human form? Question

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy
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Re: IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Post by Admin on Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:44 am

Prism1111 wrote:
Admin wrote:
Prism1111 wrote:It has taken me awhile to try to understand were everyone is coming from and going to with this Concept, idea, following, belief or the point at which ones "seek to draw himself from" I guess is the best difinition ayyy?
This consept is foreign to me , although its not really. needing a Physical Body of another to seek their own enlightenment

It always surprises me that so many find the idea of a living (contemporary) human Spiritual Teacher so strange - or even unnecessary. Did not EVERY religion throughout history come into being from the teachings of a great Spiritual Master - a human being?

Does not every religion expect the return of the Master on Earth at some time?

I know that the Jews expect Elijah to return, the Buddhists await Buddha, and the Christians patiently await Yehoshua.

So what is so strange about His arrival in human form?

PLU ~ Bob


You mentioned about every religion through history having a Spiritual Master. In the Truth of Self Gnosis backed by Christ’s scriptures, every religion is false as we talked about, so for me why, would their Masters be not False also in the regards of Noted Heads, some what like the Listed Saints of the RCC , again by Big religions(Governments).
Hi Tom,

Actually what I said was that
EVERY religion throughout history came into being from the teachings of a great Spiritual Master - a human being? This is NOT the same as HAVING a 'living' Spiritual Master - unless you consider the Bishops and/or Priests to fulfill that role! Paul's "Christianity" (later known as 'orthodoxy') even rejected James as a true leader, and has never had a SPIRITUAL MASTER since!

Yes, the religions are false - but I am sure that you don't think that Yehoshua was false - and neither do I consider that Moses, or Elijah, or any of the great Prophets were false - and that goes for Buddha and Mohammed too.

Why do you think a long and continuous line of great Prophets came to Israel right up to the time of Yehoshua? Do you think that none have come since that time? Do you think God has left us high and dry for 2,000 years?

If we are told to become as little children - what is it that little children need most of all to cope?

NOT books! Books can be misunderstood, books can be corrupted, books can be burned.

Think and pray about it Tom. Who do you think were the most fortunate humans on Earth, if not those who actually met, recognized, and walked with the Great Prophets -
DURING THEIR LIFETIMES ON EARTH!

Do you think that God would not give the very same opportunity to EVERYONE?

PLU ~ Bob
Very Happy
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