MANY MESSIAHS ?

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MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Admin on Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:48 am


Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection


JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

For complete news report and photos CLICK HERE

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

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Many Massias

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:11 pm

Hay brother Bob, many blessings to you. Thank you for posting this, I seen one mention of the tablet but couldn`t get the story in full, quite an earthly find ayy? Makes everything abit more interesting in thoughts surrounding Christ as a whole for ones reading and hearing about it.
It intregs me as to how much suppresion of the truth back then there was , and even how much more now ayy?

I pray all is well there in the east....Love to You and all in our Lord

Brother Thomas

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Re: MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Maitreya on Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:06 pm

Of course there have been many Christs. Jesus was a Christ, an empowered being. There were many before him who were empowered. The Buddha was a Christ. He was empowered (His story actually shares many similarities with Jesus'). Just because there was a Christ before Jesus Christ doesn't mean that Jesus isn't worthy of honor as a great teacher or that we can't trust apostolic descriptions of his life. All that it means is that there have been many Christs and that sometimes they display similar, well, in Hinduism we call them Lilas ("plays") to the world. Smile That's how I feel on the issue, anyway.

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Re: MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:14 am

It's just more evidence to support that the story is a allegorical for immensely important realities that a seeker must know about oneself. The scriptures are metaphoric allusions of mind and being, as one prepares or the preparing to enter the inner kingdom.

This doesn't mean Yeshua didn't exist but that what is written is more inner narrative than outer.

And Maitreya there has been many Christ, however Yeshua become one with God -- that is one with the WHOLE yet not the Whole. A Co-Creator, fulling his fullness of Being in Sabbath.

In any case the Original Scriptures, the Original Hebrew Version of Matthew states that there were other Christ.

"If thy brother (saith he) have sinned by a word and made thee amends, seven times in a day receive thou him. Simon his disciple said unto him: Seven times in a day? The Lord answered and said unto him: Yea, I say unto thee, unto seventy times seven times. For in the prophets also, after they were anointed (christ) by the Holy Spirit, the word of sin was found."(Gospel of Hebrews).

Christ merely means Anointed one, to be Anointed. When one achieves the Anointed Mind (Perfect Tree of Life) they become Christ just as the Ebionites, who were the first followers of Yeshua held,

“They live conformably to the customs of the Jews, alleging that they are justified according to the law,and saying that Jesus was justified by fulfilling the law. And therefore it was, (according to the Ebionaeans,) that (the Savior) was named (the) Christ of God and Jesus, since not one of the rest (of mankind) had observed completely the law. For if even any other had fulfilled the commandments (contained) in the law, he would have been that Christ. And the (Ebionaeans allege) that
they themselves also, when in like manner they fulfill (the law), are able to become Christs; for they assert that our Lord Himself was a man in a like sense with all the rest of the human family”
(Hippolytus; The Refutation of All Heresies, Bk 7, Ch 22, Doctrine of the Ebionaeans).

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Question

Post by Admin on Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:31 am

Hi Passerby

Do you think that until one actually achieves Christhood (perfect Mind) for one'sSELF, that it would be advisable to seek out, listen to, and follow the teachings and advice of someone who had already achieved Christhood?

Did not even Yehoshua Himself go to a Master (John the Baptist) to recieve initiation into the LIGHT?

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

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Re: MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Maitreya on Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:10 pm

The_Passerby wrote:
And Maitreya there has been many Christ, however Yeshua become one with God -- that is one with the WHOLE yet not the Whole. A Co-Creator, fulling his fullness of Being in Sabbath.
Ah, we differ in this respect. I think that all Christs become One with God.

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Re: MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Guest on Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:53 pm

Admin wrote:Hi Passerby

Do you think that until one actually achieves Christhood (perfect Mind) for one'sSELF, that it would be advisable to seek out, listen to, and follow the teachings and advice of someone who had already achieved Christhood?

Did not even Yehoshua Himself go to a Master (John the Baptist) to recieve initiation into the LIGHT?

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

We've discussed this before. My opinion still hasn't changed. It depends on the standard and the path followed and the individual, whom is by a enticement in regards their laws, drawn to a specific way or path. For this reason, some people need external masters while others do not, considering their paths. However, if I am to speak from the PURELY Ebionite perspective of Yeshua Way, then no man needs that anyone teach them, because the True Teacher dwells within them. That everyone has a Higher Self, which is a Mind, Intellect, Capacity, Depth, Consciousness, Light -- this knows more than all the sum books of the world.

Bob, you will have to forgive me. I have interacted with this Being of Light, which as given was my Pre-Existent Soul. I have been drawn up into its reality and Nature and taught directly on the occasions that I have been blessed with such. And this, MY SOUL SELF, has guided me through all of my experiences and such.

Yeshua urged his disciples to not call themselves rabbi or Master, because there is only ONE master and Teacher, and it dwells within you. another man can not teach you, but they can guide you. No one can achieve this alone, but ultimately there is only self initiation. A true guide does not teach, he does not take you mind put his limits upon it, which can be a an obstruction to connecting with that Being of Light and growing its kernel of Light within ourselves. But rather he guides you to to connect and draw upon the Intellect which is radiant with Light within you. A guide merely tells a man the road blocks that are ahead of him, and gives him a basis, through which to maximize his endeavor. After that, he merely gives the man nothing, but makes him draw within himself, to sustain what is his so that he can possess himself. In this LIFE I never needed a teacher, but I have meet a group of miraculous people, whom has helped me to progress, but before them, I knew, because I experienced directly.

I am not saying a man can go at this alone, there is no doing this alone. But you don't need a Master, the Master is within you and knows more than all the teachers of this world. This is the secret of Gnosticism at its core -- to bind with the True Prophet within you.

And it is not my belief or thought that Yeshua was ever John the Baptist student by any means whatsoever.

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Re: MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Guest on Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:02 pm

Maitreya wrote:
The_Passerby wrote:
And Maitreya there has been many Christ, however Yeshua become one with God -- that is one with the WHOLE yet not the Whole. A Co-Creator, fulling his fullness of Being in Sabbath.
Ah, we differ in this respect. I think that all Christs become One with God.

Matreya, one must know thy self before they can even dream of knowing God. The Anointing comes in degrees and capacities. There are different births just as there are different worlds. It was said that the whole fount of the holy spirit came upon Yeshua. He achieved the final birth -- perpetual Sabbath. Buddha came to know thy self, which is to be born into the Nature and Kingdom of his True Being -- HIS Soul of Light. After this birth is achieve, which is of MIND, the third birth, the ascent into being is there. That is of the Spirit.


One must know thy self, then they will be known. And this is a Gnostic saying. Until one knows thy self, they are not even know -- they are not real. To be recognized by the real they must become real -- they must possess themselves and be born again, within the True Garment of their Being -- that Being of Light. This is to achieve the Self Begotten birth.

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Many Mass.....

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:05 am

I also Fully agree with Passerby, For anyone in the world that has not attained the full aspects of the Fathers law in that and also fulfilling there own quest giving them by the Father only, ones in the world would be subject to the Mixture and even a spec part of the deficiency within them would null and void a Master difinition whom our Father Holds souly proclaimed by His words (Son). If by saying that ones need to find an earthly master to lift themselves up to the inheritance deserved them by their seeking, then that would be admitting that the Father in us is deficient and cannot possibly be self begotton in Christ, as is the truth of it. And as stating before, If we are deficient so is the earthly Master.
In verification of our ableness to achieve by ourselves one can see it in Luke;
Lu:7:28: For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Thus saying Baptist was the Highest of profits, and also anyone attaining the Least level within the Kingdom of Lights shall be greater than He (John the baptist). So it pretty much says we can go it alone in the Father, which the Spirit witnesses to that in me.

Bob also to me , the understanding of Jesus going to John the Bapist to be Baptised was Christ Humbling Himself unto Man, who He was to serve as the Son of man, being God for another lesson to others, that even with God in you you should do these things in humbleness for your brother. Thus also starting the example against Vanity.

In Pistis Sophia Christ answers his disciples as to if the Baptism of water has importance. Christ tells them No, only within the Holy Spirit is Baptism of effect and of water was just a symbolic Parable to that. He even states that John did many things in error which he himself did not know. Christ also states the John was the born of the Spirit of Elisha and also did not know, which had fulfilled the Jewish Law, But there were many Veils and the People were blinded. This gives credance to the Cycles of the Body which I stated talking of the second coming post you had Bob.

there are many lights of color that adds to the perfection in Him within us indeed

Bro Thomas.......... jocolor

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Re: MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Admin on Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:32 am

I think that there is some misunderstanding of what I actually mean when I talk about a contemporary human Teacher (i.e. Spiritual Master).

Of course the inner SPIRIT of TRUTH (the inner LOGOS & LIGHT) must be our teacher, but what I mean by an external Teacher is someone to SHOW US THE WAY, to LEAD US IN, to OPEN THE DOOR, to REVEAL THE KEYS to the inner MYSTERIES OF THE SPIRIT.

To perceive things intellectually does not make the HIDDEN 'INNER' WAY a REALITY. It is hidden for good reason - but that is another story. I know, from the Initiation which I have received from my Master, and the resulting esoteric experiences and gnosis of SPIRIT (which I have tried to explain in other posts, i.e. EXPERIENCE of the LIGHT, LOGOS, SOUND, and NECTAR), that I could never have discovered alone and without help. I also know that to go on one's knees to a living human Master requires total SUBMISSION (= ISLAM) OF EGO and PRIDE - perhaps one of the hardest things for the many to do - but, I think, absolutely necessary (quite apart from receiving Initiation into the Mysteries). Is there anyone on Earth that does not need to humble themselves in such a way?

Do not ALL the great religions talk of the necessity of Spiritual Teachers? and of the requirement to always be on the lookout for the Master's return to Earth? Does not every religion believe their great Master will come again in the flesh - what for? if we can do it all alone? There are SOOOOO many Biblical (and other) passages which tell us to SEEK FOR THE LORD (YAHWEH = the MASTER ~ not ELOHIM = SPIRITS of GOD).

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

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Re: MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:30 am

You'll have to excuse my last replies, Bob. I was in a rush and it was very late I believe. So some of it may have been incoherent.

But no one can open the door for you. Nor can they give you a key to the door. They can simply tell you that there is a door, and that the Laws have brought you to them so that you can have a catalyst to connect to things further. They will tell you that there is a key, but you must find it. They will tell you of the reality of what prevents you from finding and attaining this key in yourself, and how to find this door. They can not give you anything. A mans key must fit his lock. No mans lock is the same. Why? Because we have interacted with the laws differently and the sum total of our engaging has begotten the very objectives and conditions of our life, for some as prisons, for some as farms, for some as soldiers, for some as jungles. So each has their chief defects, which much like a planet which has many moons revolving it, which resolves a sun -- we have things to work on that are individual to the laws that premeate and regulate the movements in us. These Laws themselves are all the same, but the manner in which these laws work upon us is individual to what has been invoked -- just as no person is the same genetically. The moon in you is different in its movement of the moon in you, but we can both utilize the moon without to chart its movement within.

A man doesn't need anything from anyone in that manner. All that a man needs is within him. Mankind is a very complex and elaborate universe. A universe will take care of the things of itself, by laws. What we are trying to do is move this functioning out of the darkness and into a Light so that we can move and order our universe, in the image where our ideal dwells. And by this, I am saying, that a man has all these things present within him. Depending on the laws of his birth, he will move in a certain direction, utilizing a specific function of mind and etc. He will be attracted to things which will reflect a reality of what he, at the present moment, needs to work on - essentially what is preventing him from raising above the earth-bound -- his organic limitations. If he can be conscious in that moment and triangulate, such a man will have success in his work. Some do not possess consciousness and a teacher is necessary for them to proceed, as a man can not trust himself and not possessing himself, he can redirect himself naturally. He comes under a Teacher who can be this for him. However teachers, like birds from on high, can have the effect of fragmenting a man. In any case he must be loyal to his teacher, or else he compromises everything for that initiation period. This effect can take the seed away within a man, that is fragment him, where he draws from different sources and becomes dependent on what is outside him, rather what is in him. A man can not grow what is truly his, what is from his Soul, if he does not gain a unity.

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Re: MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:19 am

A intellectual can never make it in the works. That is just one facet, a fragmented view where all things are filtered through a logical informatory and linear process, which at best for must is organic linear and still earth-bound. The intellectual faculty yet lacks its feminine counterpart by which a elevated impression is given life through the breath of God -- the movement of energy through the forms and paths of the mind. A man is more than this organic intellect which isn't developed to becoming the Linear REASON of an elevated intellectual and must triangulate the thought and bring about the impression of the two I referred to. These things must be felt, they must be connected to. A man must prove all things -- this is through a process of binding.

Bob, the reality I am referring to is of the utmost importance and it is why I return to it always and forever. A man must Know thy self. He must know his constitution of Being and this begins with the physical. But for certain he must know about the Laws and he MUST know that he has a Pre-Existent Soul, of which IS. This is his True Self and Nature, that does not dwell in the flesh, but within a realm and reality unto itself with many other Souls. It is Pure LIGHT and HIGHER INTELLECT, and is a Being in and of itself representing what is a the real in the man and like a umbilical cord connected to embynonic essence in a man, which grows as man alchemically changes his physical constitution and expands is mind into the depth, to manifest in increasing degrees HIS TRUE SELF and its Indivisible WILL. No teacher can give you this. A man should merely tell you how to acquire things -- how to acquire the key, where the door is, and what lays in ones way as they travel to that door. He can help the man to see himself and guide him to prove all things. Because a man must draw upon his own inner resources, he can not be sustained by another.

There is a thing that needs to be said. A man projects life through the vitality that is perpeled from his sight. And he receives his impression through the condition of his nature. He idenities with everything. And what I mean is that what he sees is himself reflected back at him. He sees very little of life, because he has yet to come close to enter into life. A mans ability to see another is dependent on how close he has connected to his Soul -- he does not yet have objectivety. But the closer he moves towards wholeness the more centered his perspective becomes. So, while some people need things, a man will often say all men need this. But this is a form of his own identification, of applying himself to others. My standards are not the same as another. And while there is facts, I understand why such men like Gurdjieff said without a teacher a man can do nothing, without a teacher a man will wander in his own self deceit -- but we are not all the same, some are blessed with other things. My Soul saw that I be a cheater and I have cheated, but even though cheating I have applied great efforts and made big sacrifices. A man needs a Guide. A teacher will fragment a man. The only human in this world who can be a teacher over another, is a persons parents as the child develops from its conceptions to its adulthood. And this reason is because the child is a by product of the polarities of their parents coming in harmonic interaction, the Light and Life coming together to form the child (not to form the childs essence, but to form the shell and environment for what the essence dwells in at conception). Because of this connection in the etheric or as they call it ethereal, only the parents can teach their children and not fragment them and protect their essence. That is the field one must grow in. Unfortunately in this time and cycle it is not like this. In times long past, in spiritual communities it was the parents who taught their children about spiritual concepts and the work on oneself. There is a reality why this is true and a fact but I digress.

And about the bible, anyone can prove their doctrine out of it. I can show how Yeshua repeatedly, CLEARLY said DIRECTLY that his disciples must not call themselves teachers, masters, or fathers. I can show directly in John letter this same reality, among other places, such as James letter and etc. But this is not necessary. Again anyone can prove their doctrine out of the bible -- they were formed and created that way.

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Re: MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Admin on Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:24 am

The_Passerby wrote:You'll have to excuse my last replies, Bob. I was in a rush and it was very late I believe. So some of it may have been incoherent.

But no one can open the door for you. Nor can they give you a key to the door. They can simply tell you that there is a door, and that the Laws have brought you to them so that you can have a catalyst to connect to things further. They will tell you that there is a key, but you must find it. They will tell you of the reality of what prevents you from finding and attaining this key in yourself, and how to find this door. They can not give you anything. A mans key must fit his lock. No mans lock is the same. Why? Because we have interacted with the laws differently and the sum total of our engaging has begotten the very objectives and conditions of our life, for some as prisons, for some as farms, for some as soldiers, for some as jungles. So each has their chief defects, which much like a planet which has many moons revolving it, which resolves a sun -- we have things to work on that are individual to the laws that premeate and regulate the movements in us. These Laws themselves are all the same, but the manner in which these laws work upon us is individual to what has been invoked -- just as no person is the same genetically. The moon in you is different in its movement of the moon in you, but we can both utilize the moon without to chart its movement within.

A man doesn't need anything from anyone in that manner. All that a man needs is within him. Mankind is a very complex and elaborate universe. A universe will take care of the things of itself, by laws. What we are trying to do is move this functioning out of the darkness and into a Light so that we can move and order our universe, in the image where our ideal dwells. And by this, I am saying, that a man has all these things present within him. Depending on the laws of his birth, he will move in a certain direction, utilizing a specific function of mind and etc. He will be attracted to things which will reflect a reality of what he, at the present moment, needs to work on - essentially what is preventing him from raising above the earth-bound -- his organic limitations. If he can be conscious in that moment and triangulate, such a man will have success in his work. Some do not possess consciousness and a teacher is necessary for them to proceed, as a man can not trust himself and not possessing himself, he can redirect himself naturally. He comes under a Teacher who can be this for him. However teachers, like birds from on high, can have the effect of fragmenting a man. In any case he must be loyal to his teacher, or else he compromises everything for that initiation period. This effect can take the seed away within a man, that is fragment him, where he draws from different sources and becomes dependent on what is outside him, rather what is in him. A man can not grow what is truly his, what is from his Soul, if he does not gain a unity.

Of course, I cannot speak of your personal experiences, but only of my own.

All I can say is that my experience ties up perfectly with the simple fact that countless Spiritual Teachers / Masters have come to Earth throughout history, and that all religious scriptures say that we must seek them while here on Earth in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

As an example: we may strive to understand and pronounce the Chinese language (written and spoken) without a fluent contemporary (living) Chinese speaking teacher ~ but I really don't think we could succeed. Hebrew scholars, even now, do not know the correct pronunciation of many ancient and obscure Hebrew words.

But then everyone is free to follow their own way.

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

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Re: MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:40 am

Admin wrote:
The_Passerby wrote:You'll have to excuse my last replies, Bob. I was in a rush and it was very late I believe. So some of it may have been incoherent.

But no one can open the door for you. Nor can they give you a key to the door. They can simply tell you that there is a door, and that the Laws have brought you to them so that you can have a catalyst to connect to things further. They will tell you that there is a key, but you must find it. They will tell you of the reality of what prevents you from finding and attaining this key in yourself, and how to find this door. They can not give you anything. A mans key must fit his lock. No mans lock is the same. Why? Because we have interacted with the laws differently and the sum total of our engaging has begotten the very objectives and conditions of our life, for some as prisons, for some as farms, for some as soldiers, for some as jungles. So each has their chief defects, which much like a planet which has many moons revolving it, which resolves a sun -- we have things to work on that are individual to the laws that premeate and regulate the movements in us. These Laws themselves are all the same, but the manner in which these laws work upon us is individual to what has been invoked -- just as no person is the same genetically. The moon in you is different in its movement of the moon in you, but we can both utilize the moon without to chart its movement within.

A man doesn't need anything from anyone in that manner. All that a man needs is within him. Mankind is a very complex and elaborate universe. A universe will take care of the things of itself, by laws. What we are trying to do is move this functioning out of the darkness and into a Light so that we can move and order our universe, in the image where our ideal dwells. And by this, I am saying, that a man has all these things present within him. Depending on the laws of his birth, he will move in a certain direction, utilizing a specific function of mind and etc. He will be attracted to things which will reflect a reality of what he, at the present moment, needs to work on - essentially what is preventing him from raising above the earth-bound -- his organic limitations. If he can be conscious in that moment and triangulate, such a man will have success in his work. Some do not possess consciousness and a teacher is necessary for them to proceed, as a man can not trust himself and not possessing himself, he can redirect himself naturally. He comes under a Teacher who can be this for him. However teachers, like birds from on high, can have the effect of fragmenting a man. In any case he must be loyal to his teacher, or else he compromises everything for that initiation period. This effect can take the seed away within a man, that is fragment him, where he draws from different sources and becomes dependent on what is outside him, rather what is in him. A man can not grow what is truly his, what is from his Soul, if he does not gain a unity.

Of course, I cannot speak of your personal experiences, but only of my own.

All I can say is that my experience ties up perfectly with the simple fact that countless Spiritual Teachers / Masters have come to Earth throughout history, and that all religious scriptures say that we must seek them while here on Earth in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

As an example: we may strive to understand and pronounce the Chinese language (written and spoken) without a fluent contemporary (living) Chinese speaking teacher ~ but I really don't think we could succeed. Hebrew scholars, even now, do not know the correct pronunciation of many ancient and obscure Hebrew words.

But then everyone is free to follow their own way.

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

Bob, I have at every point expressed I know why you say a man needs a teacher, just as I know why Gurdjieff says this. And I know why a man who believes he can do this alone is in a illusion or delusion of himself, to believe that he can do anything, in his natural state. I know a man must submit himself to his teacher, that he must have trust in one who knows more than his own self, because he does not know and is divided and will betray what is best for him or will deviate from his ideal without a constant force bringing him back to attention -- back from sleep. But I hope you are seeing what I am saying or have said prior.

I did not need a teacher. HOWEVER I would be nothing without the group I entered this life with. So I am not doing anything alone, they have been with me and my Soul has guided me. I did not have a normal life. I don't know everything, I am not complete -- but I have an very close relationship with my Soul, by virtue of my past. It is what it is. I will not say that I have not learned from others. I have. But what is in me is my foremost teacher and guides me through all truth, and it is in it that I prove. If I had a external teacher, I would be compromised, I could not achieve the objectives of this life.

And there are different paths.

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Re: MANY MESSIAHS ?

Post by Admin on Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:40 pm

The_Passerby wrote:
Admin wrote:
The_Passerby wrote:You'll have to excuse my last replies, Bob. I was in a rush and it was very late I believe. So some of it may have been incoherent.

But no one can open the door for you. Nor can they give you a key to the door. They can simply tell you that there is a door, and that the Laws have brought you to them so that you can have a catalyst to connect to things further. They will tell you that there is a key, but you must find it. They will tell you of the reality of what prevents you from finding and attaining this key in yourself, and how to find this door. They can not give you anything. A mans key must fit his lock. No mans lock is the same. Why? Because we have interacted with the laws differently and the sum total of our engaging has begotten the very objectives and conditions of our life, for some as prisons, for some as farms, for some as soldiers, for some as jungles. So each has their chief defects, which much like a planet which has many moons revolving it, which resolves a sun -- we have things to work on that are individual to the laws that premeate and regulate the movements in us. These Laws themselves are all the same, but the manner in which these laws work upon us is individual to what has been invoked -- just as no person is the same genetically. The moon in you is different in its movement of the moon in you, but we can both utilize the moon without to chart its movement within.

A man doesn't need anything from anyone in that manner. All that a man needs is within him. Mankind is a very complex and elaborate universe. A universe will take care of the things of itself, by laws. What we are trying to do is move this functioning out of the darkness and into a Light so that we can move and order our universe, in the image where our ideal dwells. And by this, I am saying, that a man has all these things present within him. Depending on the laws of his birth, he will move in a certain direction, utilizing a specific function of mind and etc. He will be attracted to things which will reflect a reality of what he, at the present moment, needs to work on - essentially what is preventing him from raising above the earth-bound -- his organic limitations. If he can be conscious in that moment and triangulate, such a man will have success in his work. Some do not possess consciousness and a teacher is necessary for them to proceed, as a man can not trust himself and not possessing himself, he can redirect himself naturally. He comes under a Teacher who can be this for him. However teachers, like birds from on high, can have the effect of fragmenting a man. In any case he must be loyal to his teacher, or else he compromises everything for that initiation period. This effect can take the seed away within a man, that is fragment him, where he draws from different sources and becomes dependent on what is outside him, rather what is in him. A man can not grow what is truly his, what is from his Soul, if he does not gain a unity.

Of course, I cannot speak of your personal experiences, but only of my own.

All I can say is that my experience ties up perfectly with the simple fact that countless Spiritual Teachers / Masters have come to Earth throughout history, and that all religious scriptures say that we must seek them while here on Earth in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

As an example: we may strive to understand and pronounce the Chinese language (written and spoken) without a fluent contemporary (living) Chinese speaking teacher ~ but I really don't think we could succeed. Hebrew scholars, even now, do not know the correct pronunciation of many ancient and obscure Hebrew words.

But then everyone is free to follow their own way.

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

Bob, I have at every point expressed I know why you say a man needs a teacher, just as I know why Gurdjieff says this. And I know why a man who believes he can do this alone is in a illusion or delusion of himself, to believe that he can do anything, in his natural state. I know a man must submit himself to his teacher, that he must have trust in one who knows more than his own self, because he does not know and is divided and will betray what is best for him or will deviate from his ideal without a constant force bringing him back to attention -- back from sleep. But I hope you are seeing what I am saying or have said prior.

I did not need a teacher. HOWEVER I would be nothing without the group I entered this life with. So I am not doing anything alone, they have been with me and my Soul has guided me. I did not have a normal life. I don't know everything, I am not complete -- but I have an very close relationship with my Soul, by virtue of my past. It is what it is. I will not say that I have not learned from others. I have. But what is in me is my foremost teacher and guides me through all truth, and it is in it that I prove. If I had a external teacher, I would be compromised, I could not achieve the objectives of this life.

And there are different paths.

PB, I think I can basically agree with what you have said here. However, I am intrigued by what you have inferred about your early upbringing - if it is not too personal, perhaps you might share your life story in more detail with us. I'd really love to hear about your experiences.

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

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