"FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

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"FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Admin on Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:44 pm

Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU
Very Happy


Last edited by Admin on Mon May 26, 2008 6:58 am; edited 3 times in total

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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by BelzeBob on Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:37 am

water=knowledge


(wine=understanding)
fire=spirit

as I understand it. fire being the most powerful of the 3.

BB
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Admin on Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:35 am

BelzeBob wrote:water=knowledge

(wine=understanding)
fire=spirit

as I understand it. fire being the most powerful of the 3.

BB

That's an interesting interpretation.

So when Yehoshua changed water into wine, He was actually changing 'knowledge' into 'Understanding'.

Do you think this was what the Gospel writers meant by the story?

PLU Very Happy

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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by BelzeBob on Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:12 pm

Yes.

it is also related to the parable about.... "don't put old wine in new bottles, or new wine in old bottles, but old wine in old bottles and new wine in new bottles.". (bottles or sacks? not important.)
The old wine is the old understanding and belongs in the old mind, but new understanding can only be put into a new mind. Here new is better (higher) than old. New - a new way of thinking.

addition: I think it's wine sacks, not bottles. Jesus said that the old wine sacks (the old minds) cannot hold the new wine. (maybe this is actually true in the literal sense). It will leak out because the old sacks can't hold it like it can hold old wine.

Jesus, like many other masters was extremely good at making common-sense parables related to daily life. Where the inner meaning was amplified by the simplicity and logic of the "ordinary event". Like how new and old wine behaves in old and new wine-sacks.
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Admin on Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:47 am

Thanks BB

Do you have any more interesting interpretations of Jesus' other parables?

PLU Very Happy

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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by BelzeBob on Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:33 am

Hello Admin

Oh yes, sure! But I'll have to look in Maurice Nicoll's books then.... (I really recommend you to buy them! Very Happy but maybe you're like me, you don't buy books very often....)

OK: walking on the water...

water=the knowledge. Jesus could walk on the water (knowledge) - meaning he mastered the knowledge.

I'll be back with more later.

Rolling Eyes I like your smileys, you have so many

BB
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Admin on Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:50 am

BelzeBob wrote:Hello Admin

Oh yes, sure! But I'll have to look in Maurice Nicoll's books then.... (I really recommend you to buy them! Very Happy but maybe you're like me, you don't buy books very often....)
Yes ~ they're far too expensive, especially if they're of special interest (non-massed produced) topics.

OK: walking on the water...

water=the knowledge. Jesus could walk on the water (knowledge) - meaning he mastered the knowledge.

I'll be back with more later.
I'll be waiting. bounce

Rolling Eyes I like your smileys, you have so many

BB

PLU Arrow Embarassed Twisted Evil

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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by theeternaliam on Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:20 am

Can baptismof fire also represent the burning of one's "chaff" I feel as if my initiation on The Path "began" during an experience of The Dark Night, expressed beautifully by St. John of the Cross. Perhaps, it starts w/ the repantance of sins(water) and then comes the fire to burn the sins that cleave to one. Also, do you beleve this is a continual process, or just a one-time thing. I don't think I would like to experience the fires again, and I also am not so sure if it would be "Just" for someone to have to burn their negative karma through painful experiences(is that the only way, or can love also burn sin, or do the fires just feel painful for one not able to "bear the beams of love"?), but I'm also not so sure if it would be Just for one to only repent once and if they still sin, well, tough luck. How do you all feel about this?

Peace.
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by BelzeBob on Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:33 am

Hi!

Fire is Spirit. But it also has other meanings.

1. cleansing
2. friction.
3. (conscious) suffering

cleansing: like in purgatory (Dante) where the soul has to be cleansed, purified before it can enter Heaven. This means that all that's false and evil must be "burned away".

friction: in order to make a fire (fire is good) a spark is needed. This spark is produced by friction.
The constant struggle between "yes" and "no", right and wrong in a man produces friction -
energy for inner development. No work, no development is possible without (a lot of) friction.

suffering: fire can also mean suffering. Without heat of suffering there can be no bread.



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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:58 am

theeternaliam wrote:Can baptism of fire also represent the burning of one's "chaff"? I feel as if my initiation on The Path "began" during an experience of The Dark Night, expressed beautifully by St. John of the Cross. Perhaps, it starts w/ the repantance of sins (water) and then comes the fire to burn the sins that cleave to one. Also, do you beleve this is a continual process, or just a one-time thing. I don't think I would like to experience the fires again, and I also am not so sure if it would be "Just" for someone to have to burn their negative karma through painful experiences(is that the only way, or can love also burn sin, or do the fires just feel painful for one not able to "bear the beams of love"?), but I'm also not so sure if it would be Just for one to only repent once and if they still sin, well, tough luck. How do you all feel about this?

Peace.

Hi TEIA

From my own experience, I understand the 'FIRE Baptism' to be an 'Initiation of LIGHT'. I received this (amongst other initiations) personally from my Spiritual Teacher in 1973. It is a special technique which enables the initiate to be able to go within and experience (actually see) the Mystic Spiritual Light of Elohim ~ often referred to as the 'Beatific Vision' or 'Vision of the Shekhinah'.

The results of this experience can be likened to exposing a roll of photographic film to a light source ~ all the images are simply burned away (similarly, all indoctrination of our mind is removed). There is no pain involved with this process, on the contrary, it reveals the great and true LOVE of God ~ a Peace beyond comprehension.

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by theeternaliam on Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:43 am

Interesting. Does this vision come about through "intense" meditation or is it an instantaneous switch in consciousness. I feel that I do something similar, but perhanps not as complete, when I consciously forgive the world entirely, and quit pretending I know what it is about.It also takes a certain remembering of The Light and Eternity. This oftenproduces alot of joy w/in me and lets me fell lighter and freer. Walking in nature feeling like this lets me appreciate the beauty much more and my soul often leaps for joy at such times. This reminds me of the story where after His baptism in the water, Jesus Christ comes out laughing. Laughing

Maybe this causes no pain to you because you are prepared to "bear the beams of His Love". I mean, that if someone more attached to ego and the world were to experience something similar, they would resist it and therfore feel anguish. I don't think an egoic individual would want to be cleansed of the rubbish they cling to.

"The constant sruggle in manin order to make a fire (fire is good) a spark is needed. This spark is produced by friction.
The constant struggle between "yes" and "no", right and wrong in a man produces friction -"
This reminds me of a poster I have that says "Resistance is Fertile"
Smile
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by BelzeBob on Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:05 pm

Observe, and you'll find that there's always resistance (if not you have a problem)
resistance against giving in to a bad habit f.ex.
or resistance against telling someone that (s)he's an idiot.

That's good resistance.

Then there's bad resistance, resisting getting out of bed in the morning or cleaning your apartment.
F.ex.

The angel in you resisting the devil in you - this produces the (very necessary) friction I speak of.
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Admin on Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:02 pm

theeternaliam wrote:Interesting. Does this vision come about through "intense" meditation or is it an instantaneous switch in consciousness.
If you read my introduction thread -
http://gnosis.forumotion.com/introduce-yourself-f3/hello-from-bob-t2.htm
- I explained how I first experienced the Light (before initiation) - but it was merely a fleeting glimpse. The initiation enables one to see the Light for long periods while in meditation. But occassionally (and increasingly so) I see it for short periods while in 'normal' consciousness (only with closed eyes).

I feel that I do something similar, but perhanps not as complete, when I consciously forgive the world entirely, and quit pretending I know what it is about.
Yes, it is very important to let go, to give up wondering and wandering, and to submit to the higher power. I always think of the word 'understanding' as like 'standing-under' or 'below' that which is higher (if you know what I mean) - submitting, and loosing all ego. In other words accepting that one's lower mind knows nothing of value.

It also takes a certain remembering of The Light and Eternity. This oftenproduces alot of joy w/in me and lets me fell lighter and freer. Walking in nature feeling like this lets me appreciate the beauty much more and my soul often leaps for joy at such times. This reminds me of the story where after His baptism in the water, Jesus Christ comes out laughing. Laughing

Maybe this causes no pain to you because you are prepared to "bear the beams of His Love". I mean, that if someone more attached to ego and the world were to experience something similar, they would resist it and therefore feel anguish. I don't think an egoic individual would want to be cleansed of the rubbish they cling to.
Would such a person submit themselves to a living Master for initiation in the first place? My Master emanates so much Love, that following Him is no pain, but sheer joy.

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Apakhana on Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:02 pm

If I can chime in:

To re-edit, I saw your post on another forum regarding the same topic.

Like you see, any interpretation is best left up to the individual.
If I had to guess, from my perspective it would be the Kundalini that awakens while practising tantarism.
Fire represents alot of different things. Like you've mentioned, it can represent the "holy spirit."
In this speciffic context it is most likely making reference to an alchemical-sexual work needed for a speciffic initiation.
Fire also being a chemical reaction that transforms types of energy.
In speciffic alchemical order, it may lie somewhere in between a dissolution and conjunction stage in the work.
That's about all I can tell you based on my own experience.

I hope that might help, I don't know if you saw the other post or not. It's the same one basically.

!
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Melchizedek on Sat May 10, 2008 4:16 pm

Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU
Very Happy


I apologize before hand if any of this has been said already. It seems this is multidimensional Water flows down, fire moves up. Water brings god to you, Fire moves you to god. It was said prior it could refer to Kundalini rising. It also could refer to an overflowing of compassion from the heart, and also to the ascending chariot or Merkaba. Seems to represent the flowering of SELF, ascension to I AM, christ consciousness, christhood or buddhahood. Water cleanses, fire purifies. Could also be attributed to spiritual alchemy. Stoking the fires, a galvanization or crystallization of the spark, a coming into BEING through the Master but of yourself. And more.
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Chukuma on Sun May 11, 2008 9:57 am

Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU
Very Happy


Reply:

Hi, ABS, I agree. It is the fire that brings one to a new mind manifested by light (i.e. the burning bush = Matthew 6:22). This is the fire that burns the chaff.


Htp
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Chukuma on Sun May 11, 2008 10:21 am

BelzeBob wrote:Yes.

it is also related to the parable about.... "don't put old wine in new bottles, or new wine in old bottles, but old wine in old bottles and new wine in new bottles.". (bottles or sacks? not important.)
The old wine is the old understanding and belongs in the old mind, but new understanding can only be put into a new mind. Here new is better (higher) than old. New - a new way of thinking.

addition: I think it's wine sacks, not bottles. Jesus said that the old wine sacks (the old minds) cannot hold the new wine. (maybe this is actually true in the literal sense). It will leak out because the old sacks can't hold it like it can hold old wine.

Jesus, like many other masters was extremely good at making common-sense parables related to daily life. Where the inner meaning was amplified by the simplicity and logic of the "ordinary event". Like how new and old wine behaves in old and new wine-sacks.



Reply:

Hey, BB. I agree with your interpretation above. Well done.


Htp
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Chukuma on Sun May 11, 2008 10:49 am

BelzeBob wrote:Hello Admin

Oh yes, sure! But I'll have to look in Maurice Nicoll's books then.... (I really recommend you to buy them! Very Happy but maybe you're like me, you don't buy books very often....)

OK: walking on the water...

water=the knowledge. Jesus could walk on the water (knowledge) - meaning he mastered the knowledge.

I'll be back with more later.

Rolling Eyes I like your smileys, you have so many

BB



Reply:

Like ABS, BB, I would be interested in hearing more of your interpreation on this as well. I view the waters in Matthew 14:24 as the same waters mentioned in chapter 7:

http://gnosis.forumotion.com/christianity-f9/rock-or-sand-t381.htm


In Matthew 7, Christ was on a mountain and came down from it. As soon as he came down he healed a leper (spiritually uncleaned)Prior to coming down, he spoke of the floods and winds that beat against the house that was not on solid ground. This is the unregenerative man.

In Matthew 14, Christ just also came down from the mountain and walked on unruly waters with chaotic winds. When he entered the boat the winds ceased. This rough water is the emotional nature. The winds are negative thoughts. Christ walking on the water symbolizes his mastery over this nature. The wind ceasing is a overcoming of negative thoughts. One who builds his house on solid land will be able to walk on the waters of the emotional nature and calm the winds as Christ does in Matthew 14. Peter's request for the Lord to command his coming out is a reflection of our need of the Christ's assistance to walk on this water, which Peter was able to do until he focused on a strong wind (strong negative thought), which caused him to sink (i.e. fall victim to the lower mind).



Htp
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Admin on Sun May 11, 2008 11:52 am

Chukuma wrote:
BelzeBob wrote:Hello Admin

Oh yes, sure! But I'll have to look in Maurice Nicoll's books then.... (I really recommend you to buy them! Very Happy but maybe you're like me, you don't buy books very often....)

OK: walking on the water...

water=the knowledge. Jesus could walk on the water (knowledge) - meaning he mastered the knowledge.

I'll be back with more later.

Rolling Eyes I like your smileys, you have so many

BB



Reply:

Like ABS, BB, I would be interested in hearing more of your interpreation on this as well. I view the waters in Matthew 14:24 as the same waters mentioned in chapter 7:

http://gnosis.forumotion.com/christianity-f9/rock-or-sand-t381.htm


In Matthew 7, Christ was on a mountain and came down from it. As soon as he came down he healed a leper (spiritually uncleaned)Prior to coming down, he spoke of the floods and winds that beat against the house that was not on solid ground. This is the unregenerative man.

In Matthew 14, Christ just also came down from the mountain and walked on unruly waters with chaotic winds. When he entered the boat the winds ceased. This rough water is the emotional nature. The winds are negative thoughts. Christ walking on the water symbolizes his mastery over this nature. The wind ceasing is a overcoming of negative thoughts. One who builds his house on solid land will be able to walk on the waters of the emotional nature and calm the winds as Christ does in Matthew 14. Peter's request for the Lord to command his coming out is a reflection of our need of the Christ's assistance to walk on this water, which Peter was able to do until he focused on a strong wind (strong negative thought), which caused him to sink (i.e. fall victim to the lower mind).

Htp

Unfortunately Chuk, BelzeBob has "gone away" - see his farewell message here (where he left an email address) ~

http://gnosis.forumotion.com/introduce-yourself-f3/hello-p1322.htm

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Heather on Sun May 11, 2008 11:33 pm

Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU
Very Happy


I think the holy fire or fire of hell is light. In my opinion, when we "die", we are bathed in the light of universal life. the more "bad karma" or guilt we feel, the longer we burn until we are free of our worldly shells and return to that light.
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Guest on Mon May 12, 2008 12:24 am

Heather wrote:
Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU
Very Happy


I think the holy fire or fire of hell is light. In my opinion, when we "die", we are bathed in the light of universal life. the more "bad karma" or guilt we feel, the longer we burn until we are free of our worldly shells and return to that light.

Intteresting. But where are you involved? We are told to know thy self, but what is this thing that is bathed in the Light of the universe?

Guest
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Heather on Mon May 12, 2008 1:32 am

The_Passerby wrote:
Heather wrote:
Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU
Very Happy


I think the holy fire or fire of hell is light. In my opinion, when we "die", we are bathed in the light of universal life. the more "bad karma" or guilt we feel, the longer we burn until we are free of our worldly shells and return to that light.

Intteresting. But where are you involved? We are told to know thy self, but what is this thing that is bathed in the Light of the universe?


I'm not sure i understand what you are asking here. I think our souls remain individual. is that what you're asking?
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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Guest on Mon May 12, 2008 1:55 am

Heather wrote:
The_Passerby wrote:
Heather wrote:
Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU
Very Happy


I think the holy fire or fire of hell is light. In my opinion, when we "die", we are bathed in the light of universal life. the more "bad karma" or guilt we feel, the longer we burn until we are free of our worldly shells and return to that light.

Intteresting. But where are you involved? We are told to know thy self, but what is this thing that is bathed in the Light of the universe?


I'm not sure i understand what you are asking here. I think our souls remain individual. is that what you're asking?

Ok, from this I see that you were referring to what people call "the soul." I agree that the Soul is individual, but I am not too sure that the Soul abides in the body-mind, as many believe -- perhaps even that many do not possess a Soul and have it backwards. That it is the Pre-existent Soul that Possesses them. And perhaps it is not so much that the Soul abides in a man, but that man abides within the mind of his Soul. And that a man possesses his Soul when he is born again, he becomes it. Just a few different perspectives, although there are even more of course.

You answered the question I asked.

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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Admin on Mon May 12, 2008 7:27 am

Heather wrote:I think the holy fire or fire of hell is light.
Yes, I would agree. The Spiritual LIGHT of God - the very ESSENCE.

In my opinion, when we "die", we are bathed in the light of universal life.
Yes again, when we metaphorically "die" to this carnal world, we may indeed experience the LIGHT of God (the eternal "burning bush" seen by Moses). But this must be achieved during our life on Earth.

The more "bad karma" or guilt we feel, the longer we burn until we are free of our worldly shells and return to that light.
Yes once more. It is our persona or ego - our individuality - which is burned. All that separates us from our true HOME and FATHER - LIGHT!

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Post by Maya on Mon May 12, 2008 8:13 am

Melchizedek wrote:
I apologize before hand if any of this has been said already. It seems this is multidimensional Water flows down, fire moves up. Water brings god to you, Fire moves you to god. It was said prior it could refer to Kundalini rising. It also could refer to an overflowing of compassion from the heart, and also to the ascending chariot or Merkaba. Seems to represent the flowering of SELF, ascension to I AM, christ consciousness, christhood or buddhahood. Water cleanses, fire purifies. Could also be attributed to spiritual alchemy. Stoking the fires, a galvanization or crystallization of the spark, a coming into BEING through the Master but of yourself. And more.

I like this. It leads me to consider how fire and water normally move in the physical world. Lightning and the sun concentrated through a magnifying glass to burn matter. When mater moves upward in rivers or in steam. Then to think about the divine spark and the primal ether of the Chaldeans.

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Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

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