"FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

water=knowledge


(wine=understanding)
fire=spirit

as I understand it. fire being the most powerful of the 3.

BB

BelzeBob wrote:water=knowledge

(wine=understanding)
fire=spirit

as I understand it. fire being the most powerful of the 3.

BB

That's an interesting interpretation.

So when Yehoshua changed water into wine, He was actually changing 'knowledge' into 'Understanding'.

Do you think this was what the Gospel writers meant by the story?

PLU

Yes.

it is also related to the parable about.... "don't put old wine in new bottles, or new wine in old bottles, but old wine in old bottles and new wine in new bottles.". (bottles or sacks? not important.)
The old wine is the old understanding and belongs in the old mind, but new understanding can only be put into a new mind. Here new is better (higher) than old. New - a new way of thinking.

addition: I think it's wine sacks, not bottles. Jesus said that the old wine sacks (the old minds) cannot hold the new wine. (maybe this is actually true in the literal sense). It will leak out because the old sacks can't hold it like it can hold old wine.

Jesus, like many other masters was extremely good at making common-sense parables related to daily life. Where the inner meaning was amplified by the simplicity and logic of the "ordinary event". Like how new and old wine behaves in old and new wine-sacks.

Thanks BB

Do you have any more interesting interpretations of Jesus' other parables?

PLU

Hello Admin

Oh yes, sure! But I'll have to look in Maurice Nicoll's books then.... (I really recommend you to buy them! but maybe you're like me, you don't buy books very often....)

OK: walking on the water...

water=the knowledge. Jesus could walk on the water (knowledge) - meaning he mastered the knowledge.

I'll be back with more later.

I like your smileys, you have so many

BB

BelzeBob wrote:Hello Admin

Oh yes, sure! But I'll have to look in Maurice Nicoll's books then.... (I really recommend you to buy them! but maybe you're like me, you don't buy books very often....)

Yes ~ they're far too expensive, especially if they're of special interest (non-massed produced) topics.

OK: walking on the water...

water=the knowledge. Jesus could walk on the water (knowledge) - meaning he mastered the knowledge.

I'll be back with more later.

I'll be waiting.

I like your smileys, you have so many

BB

PLU

Can baptismof fire also represent the burning of one's "chaff" I feel as if my initiation on The Path "began" during an experience of The Dark Night, expressed beautifully by St. John of the Cross. Perhaps, it starts w/ the repantance of sins(water) and then comes the fire to burn the sins that cleave to one. Also, do you beleve this is a continual process, or just a one-time thing. I don't think I would like to experience the fires again, and I also am not so sure if it would be "Just" for someone to have to burn their negative karma through painful experiences(is that the only way, or can love also burn sin, or do the fires just feel painful for one not able to "bear the beams of love"?), but I'm also not so sure if it would be Just for one to only repent once and if they still sin, well, tough luck. How do you all feel about this?

Peace.

Hi!

Fire is Spirit. But it also has other meanings.

1. cleansing
2. friction.
3. (conscious) suffering

cleansing: like in purgatory (Dante) where the soul has to be cleansed, purified before it can enter Heaven. This means that all that's false and evil must be "burned away".

friction: in order to make a fire (fire is good) a spark is needed. This spark is produced by friction.
The constant struggle between "yes" and "no", right and wrong in a man produces friction -
energy for inner development. No work, no development is possible without (a lot of) friction.

suffering: fire can also mean suffering. Without heat of suffering there can be no bread.

theeternaliam wrote:Can baptism of fire also represent the burning of one's "chaff"? I feel as if my initiation on The Path "began" during an experience of The Dark Night, expressed beautifully by St. John of the Cross. Perhaps, it starts w/ the repantance of sins (water) and then comes the fire to burn the sins that cleave to one. Also, do you beleve this is a continual process, or just a one-time thing. I don't think I would like to experience the fires again, and I also am not so sure if it would be "Just" for someone to have to burn their negative karma through painful experiences(is that the only way, or can love also burn sin, or do the fires just feel painful for one not able to "bear the beams of love"?), but I'm also not so sure if it would be Just for one to only repent once and if they still sin, well, tough luck. How do you all feel about this?

Peace.

Hi TEIA

From my own experience, I understand the 'FIRE Baptism' to be an 'Initiation of LIGHT'. I received this (amongst other initiations) personally from my Spiritual Teacher in 1973. It is a special technique which enables the initiate to be able to go within and experience (actually see) the Mystic Spiritual Light of Elohim ~ often referred to as the 'Beatific Vision' or 'Vision of the Shekhinah'.

The results of this experience can be likened to exposing a roll of photographic film to a light source ~ all the images are simply burned away (similarly, all indoctrination of our mind is removed). There is no pain involved with this process, on the contrary, it reveals the great and true LOVE of God ~ a Peace beyond comprehension.

PLU ~ Bob

Interesting. Does this vision come about through "intense" meditation or is it an instantaneous switch in consciousness. I feel that I do something similar, but perhanps not as complete, when I consciously forgive the world entirely, and quit pretending I know what it is about.It also takes a certain remembering of The Light and Eternity. This oftenproduces alot of joy w/in me and lets me fell lighter and freer. Walking in nature feeling like this lets me appreciate the beauty much more and my soul often leaps for joy at such times. This reminds me of the story where after His baptism in the water, Jesus Christ comes out laughing.

Maybe this causes no pain to you because you are prepared to "bear the beams of His Love". I mean, that if someone more attached to ego and the world were to experience something similar, they would resist it and therfore feel anguish. I don't think an egoic individual would want to be cleansed of the rubbish they cling to.

"The constant sruggle in manin order to make a fire (fire is good) a spark is needed. This spark is produced by friction.
The constant struggle between "yes" and "no", right and wrong in a man produces friction -"
This reminds me of a poster I have that says "Resistance is Fertile"

Observe, and you'll find that there's always resistance (if not you have a problem)
resistance against giving in to a bad habit f.ex.
or resistance against telling someone that (s)he's an idiot.

That's good resistance.

Then there's bad resistance, resisting getting out of bed in the morning or cleaning your apartment.
F.ex.

The angel in you resisting the devil in you - this produces the (very necessary) friction I speak of.

theeternaliam wrote:Interesting. Does this vision come about through "intense" meditation or is it an instantaneous switch in consciousness.

If you read my introduction thread -
http://gnosis.forumotion.com/introduce-yourself-f3/hello-from-bob-t2.htm
- I explained how I first experienced the Light (before initiation) - but it was merely a fleeting glimpse. The initiation enables one to see the Light for long periods while in meditation. But occassionally (and increasingly so) I see it for short periods while in 'normal' consciousness (only with closed eyes).

I feel that I do something similar, but perhanps not as complete, when I consciously forgive the world entirely, and quit pretending I know what it is about.

Yes, it is very important to let go, to give up wondering and wandering, and to submit to the higher power. I always think of the word 'understanding' as like 'standing-under' or 'below' that which is higher (if you know what I mean) - submitting, and loosing all ego. In other words accepting that one's lower mind knows nothing of value.

It also takes a certain remembering of The Light and Eternity. This oftenproduces alot of joy w/in me and lets me fell lighter and freer. Walking in nature feeling like this lets me appreciate the beauty much more and my soul often leaps for joy at such times. This reminds me of the story where after His baptism in the water, Jesus Christ comes out laughing.

Maybe this causes no pain to you because you are prepared to "bear the beams of His Love". I mean, that if someone more attached to ego and the world were to experience something similar, they would resist it and therefore feel anguish. I don't think an egoic individual would want to be cleansed of the rubbish they cling to.

Would such a person submit themselves to a living Master for initiation in the first place? My Master emanates so much Love, that following Him is no pain, but sheer joy.

PLU ~ Bob

If I can chime in:

To re-edit, I saw your post on another forum regarding the same topic.

Like you see, any interpretation is best left up to the individual.
If I had to guess, from my perspective it would be the Kundalini that awakens while practising tantarism.
Fire represents alot of different things. Like you've mentioned, it can represent the "holy spirit."
In this speciffic context it is most likely making reference to an alchemical-sexual work needed for a speciffic initiation.
Fire also being a chemical reaction that transforms types of energy.
In speciffic alchemical order, it may lie somewhere in between a dissolution and conjunction stage in the work.
That's about all I can tell you based on my own experience.

I hope that might help, I don't know if you saw the other post or not. It's the same one basically.

!

Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU

I apologize before hand if any of this has been said already. It seems this is multidimensional Water flows down, fire moves up. Water brings god to you, Fire moves you to god. It was said prior it could refer to Kundalini rising. It also could refer to an overflowing of compassion from the heart, and also to the ascending chariot or Merkaba. Seems to represent the flowering of SELF, ascension to I AM, christ consciousness, christhood or buddhahood. Water cleanses, fire purifies. Could also be attributed to spiritual alchemy. Stoking the fires, a galvanization or crystallization of the spark, a coming into BEING through the Master but of yourself. And more.