Re: "FIRE" BAPTISM (INITIATION)

Chukuma · by Chukuma on Sun May 11, 2008 8:57 am

Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU

Reply:

Hi, ABS, I agree. It is the fire that brings one to a new mind manifested by light (i.e. the burning bush = Matthew 6:22). This is the fire that burns the chaff.

Htp

Chukuma · by Chukuma on Sun May 11, 2008 9:21 am

BelzeBob wrote:Yes.

it is also related to the parable about.... "don't put old wine in new bottles, or new wine in old bottles, but old wine in old bottles and new wine in new bottles.". (bottles or sacks? not important.)
The old wine is the old understanding and belongs in the old mind, but new understanding can only be put into a new mind. Here new is better (higher) than old. New - a new way of thinking.

addition: I think it's wine sacks, not bottles. Jesus said that the old wine sacks (the old minds) cannot hold the new wine. (maybe this is actually true in the literal sense). It will leak out because the old sacks can't hold it like it can hold old wine.

Jesus, like many other masters was extremely good at making common-sense parables related to daily life. Where the inner meaning was amplified by the simplicity and logic of the "ordinary event". Like how new and old wine behaves in old and new wine-sacks.

Reply:

Hey, BB. I agree with your interpretation above. Well done.

Htp

Chukuma · by Chukuma on Sun May 11, 2008 9:49 am

BelzeBob wrote:Hello Admin

Oh yes, sure! But I'll have to look in Maurice Nicoll's books then.... (I really recommend you to buy them! but maybe you're like me, you don't buy books very often....)

OK: walking on the water...

water=the knowledge. Jesus could walk on the water (knowledge) - meaning he mastered the knowledge.

I'll be back with more later.

I like your smileys, you have so many

BB

Reply:

Like ABS, BB, I would be interested in hearing more of your interpreation on this as well. I view the waters in Matthew 14:24 as the same waters mentioned in chapter 7:

http://gnosis.forumotion.com/christianity-f9/rock-or-sand-t381.htm

In Matthew 7, Christ was on a mountain and came down from it. As soon as he came down he healed a leper (spiritually uncleaned)Prior to coming down, he spoke of the floods and winds that beat against the house that was not on solid ground. This is the unregenerative man.

In Matthew 14, Christ just also came down from the mountain and walked on unruly waters with chaotic winds. When he entered the boat the winds ceased. This rough water is the emotional nature. The winds are negative thoughts. Christ walking on the water symbolizes his mastery over this nature. The wind ceasing is a overcoming of negative thoughts. One who builds his house on solid land will be able to walk on the waters of the emotional nature and calm the winds as Christ does in Matthew 14. Peter's request for the Lord to command his coming out is a reflection of our need of the Christ's assistance to walk on this water, which Peter was able to do until he focused on a strong wind (strong negative thought), which caused him to sink (i.e. fall victim to the lower mind).

Htp

Admin · by Admin on Sun May 11, 2008 10:52 am

Chukuma wrote:
BelzeBob wrote:Hello Admin

Oh yes, sure! But I'll have to look in Maurice Nicoll's books then.... (I really recommend you to buy them! but maybe you're like me, you don't buy books very often....)

OK: walking on the water...

water=the knowledge. Jesus could walk on the water (knowledge) - meaning he mastered the knowledge.

I'll be back with more later.

I like your smileys, you have so many

BB

Reply:

Like ABS, BB, I would be interested in hearing more of your interpreation on this as well. I view the waters in Matthew 14:24 as the same waters mentioned in chapter 7:

http://gnosis.forumotion.com/christianity-f9/rock-or-sand-t381.htm

In Matthew 7, Christ was on a mountain and came down from it. As soon as he came down he healed a leper (spiritually uncleaned)Prior to coming down, he spoke of the floods and winds that beat against the house that was not on solid ground. This is the unregenerative man.

In Matthew 14, Christ just also came down from the mountain and walked on unruly waters with chaotic winds. When he entered the boat the winds ceased. This rough water is the emotional nature. The winds are negative thoughts. Christ walking on the water symbolizes his mastery over this nature. The wind ceasing is a overcoming of negative thoughts. One who builds his house on solid land will be able to walk on the waters of the emotional nature and calm the winds as Christ does in Matthew 14. Peter's request for the Lord to command his coming out is a reflection of our need of the Christ's assistance to walk on this water, which Peter was able to do until he focused on a strong wind (strong negative thought), which caused him to sink (i.e. fall victim to the lower mind).

Htp

Unfortunately Chuk, BelzeBob has "gone away" - see his farewell message here (where he left an email address) ~

http://gnosis.forumotion.com/introduce-yourself-f3/hello-p1322.htm

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

Heather · by Heather on Sun May 11, 2008 10:33 pm

Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU

I think the holy fire or fire of hell is light. In my opinion, when we "die", we are bathed in the light of universal life. the more "bad karma" or guilt we feel, the longer we burn until we are free of our worldly shells and return to that light.

by Guest on Sun May 11, 2008 11:24 pm

Heather wrote:
Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU

I think the holy fire or fire of hell is light. In my opinion, when we "die", we are bathed in the light of universal life. the more "bad karma" or guilt we feel, the longer we burn until we are free of our worldly shells and return to that light.

Intteresting. But where are you involved? We are told to know thy self, but what is this thing that is bathed in the Light of the universe?

Heather · by Heather on Mon May 12, 2008 12:32 am

The_Passerby wrote:
Heather wrote:
Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU

I think the holy fire or fire of hell is light. In my opinion, when we "die", we are bathed in the light of universal life. the more "bad karma" or guilt we feel, the longer we burn until we are free of our worldly shells and return to that light.

Intteresting. But where are you involved? We are told to know thy self, but what is this thing that is bathed in the Light of the universe?

I'm not sure i understand what you are asking here. I think our souls remain individual. is that what you're asking?

by Guest on Mon May 12, 2008 12:55 am

Heather wrote:
The_Passerby wrote:
Heather wrote:
Admin wrote:Matthew 3:11 "I (John) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

What is meant here by baptizing with 'fire'?
Could it mean that Jesus actually revealed, through His own personal baptism/initiation of disciples, the visible manifestation of God - the Holy 'Fire'/'Light' of God, as described by Moses as an eternal "burning bush"?

Is it possible?

PLU

I think the holy fire or fire of hell is light. In my opinion, when we "die", we are bathed in the light of universal life. the more "bad karma" or guilt we feel, the longer we burn until we are free of our worldly shells and return to that light.

Intteresting. But where are you involved? We are told to know thy self, but what is this thing that is bathed in the Light of the universe?

I'm not sure i understand what you are asking here. I think our souls remain individual. is that what you're asking?

Ok, from this I see that you were referring to what people call "the soul." I agree that the Soul is individual, but I am not too sure that the Soul abides in the body-mind, as many believe -- perhaps even that many do not possess a Soul and have it backwards. That it is the Pre-existent Soul that Possesses them. And perhaps it is not so much that the Soul abides in a man, but that man abides within the mind of his Soul. And that a man possesses his Soul when he is born again, he becomes it. Just a few different perspectives, although there are even more of course.

You answered the question I asked.

Admin · by Admin on Mon May 12, 2008 6:27 am

Heather wrote:I think the holy fire or fire of hell is light.

Yes, I would agree. The Spiritual LIGHT of God - the very ESSENCE.

In my opinion, when we "die", we are bathed in the light of universal life.

Yes again, when we metaphorically "die" to this carnal world, we may indeed experience the LIGHT of God (the eternal "burning bush" seen by Moses). But this must be achieved during our life on Earth.

The more "bad karma" or guilt we feel, the longer we burn until we are free of our worldly shells and return to that light.

Yes once more. It is our persona or ego - our individuality - which is burned. All that separates us from our true HOME and FATHER - LIGHT!

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

Maya · by Maya on Mon May 12, 2008 7:13 am

Melchizedek wrote:
I apologize before hand if any of this has been said already. It seems this is multidimensional Water flows down, fire moves up. Water brings god to you, Fire moves you to god. It was said prior it could refer to Kundalini rising. It also could refer to an overflowing of compassion from the heart, and also to the ascending chariot or Merkaba. Seems to represent the flowering of SELF, ascension to I AM, christ consciousness, christhood or buddhahood. Water cleanses, fire purifies. Could also be attributed to spiritual alchemy. Stoking the fires, a galvanization or crystallization of the spark, a coming into BEING through the Master but of yourself. And more.

I like this. It leads me to consider how fire and water normally move in the physical world. Lightning and the sun concentrated through a magnifying glass to burn matter. When mater moves upward in rivers or in steam. Then to think about the divine spark and the primal ether of the Chaldeans.

theeternaliam · by theeternaliam on Wed May 14, 2008 6:43 am

Water flows down, fire moves up. Water brings god to you, Fire moves you to god

I like that. So I guess, perhaps, baptism of water can represent the desire for cleansing, whereas the baptism of fire might represent Righteous Works, activity.

Chukuma · by Chukuma on Wed May 14, 2008 8:10 am

theeternaliam wrote:
Water flows down, fire moves up. Water brings god to you, Fire moves you to god

I like that. So I guess, perhaps, baptism of water can represent the desire for cleansing, whereas the baptism of fire might represent Righteous Works, activity.

Reply:

Hi, TE. I definitely agree with you on water baptism. Water signifies cleansing. The Fire is purification of mind, which leads to a New mind.

Htp

Brian · by Brian on Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:58 pm

BelzeBob wrote:
walking on the water...

water=the knowledge. Jesus could walk on the water (knowledge) - meaning he mastered the knowledge.

Walking on top of the water (or the Abyss) without sinking may be a metaphor for "overcoming death". 'Sinking' may symbolize the loss of mental-stability or self-control that occurs when the Ego senses it's impending doom.

Above the water = Higher self
Below the water = Lower self

in progress · by in progress on Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:17 am

I just stopped by to check out this forum but had to join just so I could post on this thread! So this opinion is not coming from a gnostic!

I agree w/ both Apakhana and Melchizedek. This sounds a lot like kundalini to me. It has been given other names too. It depends upon your viewpoint. To me water has always meant spirit. Before kundalini rises some will feel the movement of vibration or an influx of energy from the crown down that some refer to as grace. It's a spiritual energy, "water". Then kundalini rises, earth energy, the "fire". To the best of my knowledge the spiritual energy triggers kundalini to rise. Kundalini energy will often feel hot inside your body as it "burns away" all the emotional garbage that one has collected in his or her lifetimes, blocks to the free flow of spiritual energy that is working to raise your consciousness. Some have referred to this energy as liquid light. After this occurs many will develop psychic gifts or you an call them spiritual gifts. Some people who awaken kundalini have seen light, sometimes colored, sometimes white, flow out of the crown of their heads. I have had these experiences myself! Kundalini experiences differ as everyone is unique but there are some basic tendencies. I am fairly new to kundalini so this is the best of my understanding thus far.

in progress · by in progress on Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:44 am

I will look for your posts Sopherim!
There are people at the other forum I usually visit, www.spiritualforums.com who are far more knowledgeable than I about kundalini and psychic gifts. I hope it's all right that I post that link. If not, zap it! I am still learning about it all myself. I have only been experiencing it for about three to four months now. My psychic gifts are still in their infancy and I have not yet consciously visited the astral planes. I've been learning a lot! It's been great fun.
The only thing I'm not sure about and it popped into my head just now is whether these energies mix as they are busy buzzing around in your body, the spiritual and earth energies. Do they merge and become one? Do you have any ideas Sopherim?