Ego-Death

by theeternaliam on Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:11 am

Here's an excellent article on ego-death, determinism, beginnings of the Church and last but not least, how entheogens may have played a role in the formation of the Church. I myself have no reason to partake in such things anymore(as Allan Watts says,"when you get the message, hang up the phone") and I do disagree w/ what some of the author has to say(take everything w/ a grain of salt and remember,projection makes perception), but what he has to say about determinism(and the experience of Fatedness during a loose cognitive state) and whether there is any way we can save ourselves is vewy,vewy intewesting Wink

Here's an excerpt in case ya don't feel like reading the whole article.

Self-Control and the Hidden Source of Thoughts
The ego is the sense of being a metaphysically free, sovereign agent that originates and controls its own thoughts, actions, and movements of the will while moving through time and space.

Ego death is the cessation, in the intense mystic altered state, of the sense and feeling of being a control-wielding agent moving through time and space. The sensation of wielding control is replaced by the experience of being helplessly, powerlessly embedded in spacetime as purely a product of spacetime, with control-thoughts being perceptibly inserted or set into the stream of thought by a hidden, uncontrollable source.

The Goal of Understanding Ego Death
Ego death leaves one’s initial, youthful “lie” behind. The “lie” is the confused mental worldmodel which assumes that oneself is the ultimate creator of one’s thoughts, actions, future, and movements of the will. The goal of testing control in the altered state is not to act out the loss of control in any way, but rather, to gain fundamental self-knowledge and correction of self-frustrating error and confusion. The goal of putting control to the test is to understand the nature and limits of control across time by exploring ideas of loss of control and transcendent restabilization of control.

The promise of increased power over oneself leads to realizing the logical impossibility of that mode of power, but produces instead a viable alternate conception, of secondary-level, reflected power. The vexing attempt to gain properly functioning self-control while holding a confused model of self-control ceases. The misleading sensation that the time-voyaging continuant agent is the originator of its power of will is recognized as a conventional misperception and mental oversimplification.

The image of the Lone Soul in Purgatory shows the soul as imprisoned in chains, purified in flames, and lifted up in redemptive release by transcendent power.

In Gnosticism, the completed initiate belongs to the Immovable Race and is able to stand stably in the face of overwhelming, autonomy-undermining controllership that emanates from the hidden, primary control-level. Insights about the limitations of personal control-power result in a wounding of pride, but the mind is otherwise unharmed, and made more durable (or “imperishable”). A personal control system becomes compatible with transcendence, or becomes “divinely approved”, when it repudiates the assumption that it can depend on its own internal power to save itself during a control-limit violation.

by sopherim7 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:38 am

what i have read of this so far is very enlightning and i would like to read more,there seems to
be no link can you hook me up with one ! thanks so much

by theeternaliam on Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:18 am

http://www.egodeath.com/EntheogenTheoryOfReligion.htm

This is a very controversial article, and I don't pretend to agree with all of it(for example,I don't think the author believes in an historical Jesus Christ, ), but that is beside the point. Also, he uses a lot of philisophical jargon, which is kinda dry and difficult to comprehend.Like:

Religion and myth are about dissociative-state experience, frozen-time determinism, self-control cybernetics, and metaphorical description of these. In intense primary religious experiencing, the mental model of self and world undergoes a standard, pre-configured expansion and transformation. The religiously transformed mental model takes into account the representational nature of experience, the experience of embeddedness in timeless unity, and the limited and dependent nature of self-control agency. This religious mental-model transformation is assisted by metaphors that describe these experiential insights in a pictorial form that is easy for the mind to retain.

kinda flexes the Reason/Logic muscles, though Smile

by sopherim7 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:33 am

well your analysis is very accurate, he does use alot of words to make his points,some things i had to read a couple times . he describes in one area i read and speaks of salivia. he makes everybody seem like drunken drug addicts too i kinda giggled. but it reminded of a story in genisis. about 2 of jacobs wives leaha and rebbeca. rebbeca was barren and leah not but he prefferd rebbeca irregardless. well the story goes the women were speaking and leah wanted jacob tonite so rachel " sold" him for the nite to leaha. what rebbeca wanted in return were leah's sons MANDRAKES . i was shocked as i read this ,it goes on to say that rebbeca took the mandrakes and cried out to god and he heard her prayer for a child and she bore jacob a child is that something or what! mandrakes are also known as the devils root. it is a hallucinagenic

lol!

by theeternaliam on Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:30 am

He mentions salvia, scientific name is salvia divinorum, an entheogenic herb swiftly gaining popularity in America. Very bizarre effects, extreme shifts in perception not likened to any other, weird inter-dimensional travel and other such things are common. Converted(to Christianity) natives of Mexico believe Mother Mary inhabits it. Perhaps, it could be also/or be Sophia? If so, I'd have to say it's the manifestation Tau Malachi calls Sophia Negrans(?).

Never heard of that passage before, interesting. Mandrake is often used by magicians and such, and is believed to be an aphrodisiac and perhaps used in witch's brews to conceive. This passage increases my skepticism of Old Testament prophets. I often feel that OT characters confuse the "god of this world" with the Lord God Almighty. The "god of this world" and "rulers/angels/demons" taught man sorcery and all otherforms of manipulation, whereas I feel Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit/Heavenly Father inspire us to shun this world and its rulers so we may Realize Satisfaction, accepting Fate of this world and consequently remembering our Immovability/Inconquerability/Eternal Unity

This all ties in with the article because under the influence of entheogens I directly experienced the "seizing up of self-control" and Fate(what he terms Frozen-Time...) Jesus Christ tells us not to attempt to attain worldly satisfaction b/c by its nature it is temporary/temporal. Experiencing that one's "self"/thoughts/personality and one's apparent reality as not under one's "control" causes one to totally lose faith in the world and its temporal nature. The upside(and the only Real Existent Good) is the recognition of the True Divine and one's True Will, and leaving one's past idolatry and worship of the world behind.

New-Age thought and sorcery believe that one create's one's reality and they try everything they can to "make" their world better. The majority of society does this same thing w/ trying to attain satisfaction through worldly means(well-paying job, nice house, etc.) I believe ascetics make the same mistake in trying to attain satisfaction by purposely not having. All this has focus on temporality. The Stoic(not only stoic, however) practice of accepting Fate and other praxis, I feel, is the counter to a worldly, manipulative attitude.

Combining the practical meditations of scripture, with a loose cognitive state(usually created by ingestion of entheogens, but not necessarily) is what the author of the article believed was the reason for ancient Christianity(considered the most advanced religion for its stories and philosophy) and the original Church. Hallucinogens(according to some individuals) weren't used to specifically indulge the senses, but instead, to gain a better understanding of the nature of the world and its limitedness(Fate) and the Truth of the Divine(Incorruptibility/Immovability/Unlimitedness/Unchangeable...ness Smile

/Fullness) Unlike the author, though, I'm not so sure that entheogens are the only way to experience God's Grace(this is what he seems to think,unfortunate Crying or Very sad

)

by sopherim7 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:52 am

above i said it was rebbeca WRONG it WAS racheal what makes that even more interteresting is that it is Joseph the dreamer.he is the 11 th son of JACOB she gave him a 12th ,benjamin and died giving birth to him.so Joseph the dreamers mother took mandrake. this goes along woth a therey i have about women who use pot during pregnancey, i have seen alot of kids whos moms smoked pot and i have nevr never seen one with a birth defect or mental illness or even low birth rate, coke babies alcholic moms babies heroin babies yes BUT NEVER NEVER that i have seen wiyh pot. in fact they seem to be smarter and intuitive, this is why i think it may affect them in other ways like joseph being born a dreamer
and interpriter of dreams

by theeternaliam on Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:11 am

I'm not sure it'd be good if a mother smoked pot while pregnant, or other psychedelics, for psychedelics and pot even can make one more susceptible to nervousness and anxiety, as well as if someone had a history of schizophrenia in the family, the chance of the child being "mentally ill"(whatever that means, though) is increased. Of course, the chance they may be sensitive(and be a dreamer, like Joseph) may be increased and that could account for nervousness and mental instability.

About pot, once when I was high off some and wandered around downtown, I was feeling nervous off it, and lo, and behold, what do I see written in dust on a window, something like "God Hates Weed". Strange, huh? Anyway, to rely on external substances to experience peace and enlightenment is sorta lacking faith in one's own God-Given abilities. They say it's natural, that it's a natural high. Well, I'd have to say I prefer the Supernatural High of the Holy Spirit Wink

No coming down from the 8th heaven.

by sopherim7 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:58 pm

that was weird ,that would have freaked me out. i do agree with you ,my point was that Joseph the dreamer was born from a woman who used mandrakes ,whether for primitive fertility purposes or to try to attain some kind of supernatural experience with God.i most definitely do not advocate the use of any drugs ESPECIALLY while carrying a child. i am saying though , i have seen it done numerous times and as i have stated above have seen absolutely no adverse effects to my knowledge, so many people use drugs and alcohol , i dont know if it is because i live in a small community or if it is true in other areas . but a good portion of people my age are regular pot smokers but many also see no problem in downing a 12 pack a nite.and i have seen numerous women who gave birth to children who have smoked pot there whole life, and they have adult children your age and they are highly intelligent and very enlightened and 2 of which attend cornell university.
Like i said i do not condone it but it does not change what i have seen , and it does struck me curious, i wonder if scientific studies have been done about this?

by Vivamis123 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:55 pm

What is life to spirit...is death to the ego.

by Aquila on Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:07 am

I cannot believe anyone ever transcended his ego through the use of psycho-active plants. Especially not salvia, which I have sampled, but none of them really. They will get one into the ether, which is about half-step out of this physical basement, or maybe even the lower astral--but that's it. The only thing transcended through plants--and temporarily at that--is the throat chakra, and we do that when we dream. In fact we go much higher--further inside--than the ether in deep sleep than we do in these REM-state, lucid dream flying experiences, etc.

To transcend the ego--the lower mind--one must get to Universal Mind, and he still has a ways to go go completely beyond Mind. No DMT, LSD, mushrooms, ayahusca is going to get this done. These substances will show one the ether--and that could be a positive or negative trip--and that's something at least and I don't condemn them. Just don't get any high hopes for ultimate freedom through plants. It ain't happening.

by The_Passerby on Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:20 am

Aquila wrote:I cannot believe anyone ever transcended his ego through the use of psycho-active plants. Especially not salvia, which I have sampled, but none of them really. They will get one into the ether, which is about half-step out of this physical basement, or maybe even the lower astral--but that's it. The only thing transcended through plants--and temporarily at that--is the throat chakra, and we do that when we dream. In fact we go much higher--further inside--than the ether in deep sleep than we do in these REM-state, lucid dream flying experiences, etc.

To transcend the ego--the lower mind--one must get to Universal Mind, and he still has a ways to go go completely beyond Mind. No DMT, LSD, mushrooms, ayahusca is going to get this done. These substances will show one the ether--and that could be a positive or negative trip--and that's something at least and I don't condemn them. Just don't get any high hopes for ultimate freedom through plants. It ain't happening.

I would think the problem is that people don't really understand what ego generally is. When they do, they will understand that ego, does not die, but must be reformed and made into the good ground. A man must gain and achieve unity within themselves, a indivisible will. Ego must be reformed, pieced together within the Light. We have a essence within us, a seed-essence which is a kernel of Light from ones True Nature. The Soil that this essence is planted in is the body-mind, and the personality covers it.

Btw it is a Gnostics endeavor to develop the mind into wholeness, fullness -- not to get above it.

by Admin on Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:39 am

The_Passerby wrote:
Aquila wrote:I cannot believe anyone ever transcended his ego through the use of psycho-active plants. Especially not salvia, which I have sampled, but none of them really. They will get one into the ether, which is about half-step out of this physical basement, or maybe even the lower astral--but that's it. The only thing transcended through plants--and temporarily at that--is the throat chakra, and we do that when we dream. In fact we go much higher--further inside--than the ether in deep sleep than we do in these REM-state, lucid dream flying experiences, etc.

To transcend the ego--the lower mind--one must get to Universal Mind, and he still has a ways to go go completely beyond Mind. No DMT, LSD, mushrooms, ayahusca is going to get this done. These substances will show one the ether--and that could be a positive or negative trip--and that's something at least and I don't condemn them. Just don't get any high hopes for ultimate freedom through plants. It ain't happening.

I would think the problem is that people don't really understand what ego generally is. When they do, they will understand that ego, does not die, but must be reformed and made into the good ground. A man must gain and achieve unity within themselves, a indivisible will. Ego must be reformed, pieced together within the Light. We have a essence within us, a seed-essence which is a kernel of Light from ones True Nature. The Soil that this essence is planted in is the body-mind, and the personality covers it.

Btw it is a Gnostics endeavor to develop the mind into wholeness, fullness -- not to get above it.

Do you not think that the ULTIMATE destination is UNITY with the SUPREME? i.e. a mindless/egoless state within the GREAT SINGULAR MIND.

I think that maybe the "forbidden fruit", in the Eden myth, might have referred to the lower 'ego'/'mind'. Question

Just wondering scratch

PLU ~ Bob

by Brian on Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:11 am

Aquila wrote:To transcend the ego--the lower mind--one must get to Universal Mind, and he still has a ways to go go completely beyond Mind. No DMT, LSD, mushrooms, ayahusca is going to get this done. These substances will show one the ether--and that could be a positive or negative trip--and that's something at least and I don't condemn them. Just don't get any high hopes for ultimate freedom through plants. It ain't happening.

The Egodeath theorist (M. Hoffman) advocates the use of entheogens as the classic, most ergonomic and most efficient method to enter the mystic altered-state of conciousness. He also does not entirely equate the "lower mind" with the Ego. He more or less defines the Ego as the Self's *sense* or feeling of being a self-autonomous (or self-steering, self-governing) moral-agent who authors his own thoughts and movements of will.

The theorist does *not* advocate the "ultimate freedom through plants" but rather that when one ingests the holy-food or sacred-meals (entheogens) one can experience not "freedom" but the exact opposite --- that one can experience "fatedness" or what he calls "block universe determinism" (along with other experiences like "timelessness" and "oneness" or unity.)

In Egodeath-Theory, Entheogens are only half of the equasion. Entheogens (or Holy meals, Plant-teachers, etc.) must be combined with the study of "Perennial Philosophy" for the quickest way or most direct-route to transformation and transcendence of the Ego (as he defines it.)

The egodeath-theorist has written at least a couple thousand pages on his website and weblog, so it's easy to misread or distort his ideas by only having one quick look at his work.

by The_Passerby on Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:29 pm

Admin wrote:
The_Passerby wrote:
Aquila wrote:I cannot believe anyone ever transcended his ego through the use of psycho-active plants. Especially not salvia, which I have sampled, but none of them really. They will get one into the ether, which is about half-step out of this physical basement, or maybe even the lower astral--but that's it. The only thing transcended through plants--and temporarily at that--is the throat chakra, and we do that when we dream. In fact we go much higher--further inside--than the ether in deep sleep than we do in these REM-state, lucid dream flying experiences, etc.

To transcend the ego--the lower mind--one must get to Universal Mind, and he still has a ways to go go completely beyond Mind. No DMT, LSD, mushrooms, ayahusca is going to get this done. These substances will show one the ether--and that could be a positive or negative trip--and that's something at least and I don't condemn them. Just don't get any high hopes for ultimate freedom through plants. It ain't happening.

I would think the problem is that people don't really understand what ego generally is. When they do, they will understand that ego, does not die, but must be reformed and made into the good ground. A man must gain and achieve unity within themselves, a indivisible will. Ego must be reformed, pieced together within the Light. We have a essence within us, a seed-essence which is a kernel of Light from ones True Nature. The Soil that this essence is planted in is the body-mind, and the personality covers it.

Btw it is a Gnostics endeavor to develop the mind into wholeness, fullness -- not to get above it.

Do you not think that the ULTIMATE destination is UNITY with the SUPREME? i.e. a mindless/egoless state within the GREAT SINGULAR MIND.

I think that maybe the "forbidden fruit", in the Eden myth, might have referred to the lower 'ego'/'mind'.

Just wondering

PLU ~ Bob

Quite frankly speaking, from my personal perspective people do not really know thy self. They do not know their constitution, so the things that most who are moved by the mechanical laws of life have no idea the concept of self. They do not possess individuality -- ego is not individuality, rather ego-personality is a fragmentation of many which each is caught in its own associations, clinging to the vibration which entices its own. A man who possesses individuality is a man who possesses himself, he is not divided within himself but he has acquired unity -- he has acquired permanence, become the unchanging.

Unity or oneness with the mind of God is the objective, but many do not understand this. Why? Because our Souls abide within the mind of God and we are holographic embodiments of this pattern. We have that spiritual DNA. Unity with the Mind of God, is through one gaining harmony within themselves, to become whole. When a man knows thy self only then will he be in the position to know God. You must be born into the mind of God, by being born into the reality of what you truly are. As illustrated in the pattern of birth, this is achieved by the polarities of male/female being triangulated into unity. And as is true with birth, it is not achieved by negation, but rather the harmonious development of growth, to become a fully formed whole --TO BECOME COMPLETE-- and when the requirement is achieved through the laws, the child is born into the higher level of being, from the previous one from which it formed. And this is how progression is, we evolve and expand from world to world, from mind to MIND. Since we abide within the mind of God and since we are patterned after this, mind is all there is. So there is nothing to get above, since you abide within it -- the indwelling Logos is at the core of all our beings. And we are all participating in, by virtue of our Souls whom are the dreamers, a lucid dream.

I don't see ego as mind. And Yes the tree of knowledge of good and evil is mind, but it is the imperfect state of mind -- it represents the male/female or the polarities of mind in a divided state. However it is Through the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that one has access to the Tree of Life. They are the same tree, just one is the mind in a perfect state, where a man eats of division, but the other is when that division gains unity and becomes harmonious, that is born into the higher level of Being. This makes the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil, the Tree of Acquaintance, because it is through experimental knowledge and development there of, that this expansion and unity of mind can be achieved.

The real issues here that many miss is that man does not possess self consciousness and functions out of divisions which are stuck within their own associations. I see ego, again, as the personality. Yeshua never said one should negate the mind, but rather he said ones eye ("I") must become single. The pattern in the scriptures is all about mind and being, its about bringing harmonious development within mind, to convert the multitude within yourself. The 12 tribes become the singular evolved 12 Apostles, no more in a scattered state.

"Note when I say world, I am not referring to worlds in a literal sense."

by The_Passerby on Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:34 pm

Bob to make this simple.

Please, See the essence of what I am saying, because I will speak in a allegory. Alchemical change is what is required, not negation. Within you is a world, your objective is to bring about world peace, bringing all areas and functions to their zenith of completion, developing each in harmony with the other. Peace is not achieved through putting to death your citizens, a dog is not tamed by killing it or ignoring its existence. So through developing each place and function in harmony, the development has given one the capacity to travel to higher worlds.

There is a world above this world, which our essence is a kernel of. Every person has a solar system. The sun would represent your True Nature, which is an Luminous Soul of Light, that people call ones Pre-existent Soul that evolves over lifetimes. You revolve around this sun, while this sun revolves within a galaxy, while that galaxy revolves within a universe.

A seed can not grow without the soil that covers it, neither can the seed be protected to grow without this soil. The Soil interacts with the elements without, while the seed, depending on how much the soil has been developed to grow it, will grow by virtue of fertilizing work that the soil has been prepared with. Neither can a navigator reach its final destination without a properly functioning ship and an able united crew of workers.

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