THE GNOSTIC WAY

The children of Israel are considered by many to be God's "chosen" people. But what does this actually mean? Who are the true "children of Israel"? Are they just any and all who happen to be born into a particular bloodline?

The term Israel is first mentioned in Genesis chapter 32, where it was apparently used as a new name or 'title' for Jacob. The main purpose of this story is to tell of Jacob's "face to face" meeting with and "vision" of God (Gen 32:30), and thus his receipt of this new name/title of ISRAEL.

Orthodoxy has always tried to hide the fact that God may truly be seen and heard by certain individuals, and has tried to mask the true meaning of the term Israel. They claim that ISRAEL simply means "struggles with God". However, the first century (CE) Jewish mystic and scholar, Philo Judaeus, gave a much better, more intelligible, and logical definition of the term. He claimed it meant “one who sees God” – from three Hebrew (root) words: ’ish (= a ‘man’ / ‘intelligent being’); ra’eh (= 'vision' / ‘seeing’); and ’el (= ‘God’ / ‘Supreme Spirit’). This is clearly a much more logical and Spiritual explanation of the title ("Is-ra-el") than that held by orthodoxy.

It seems very obvious that the term ‘Israelites’ originally referred to genuine ‘Spiritual Seers’ / 'Mystics' / ‘Gnostics’ – not to any racial / ethnic identity! Thus are the true Israelites (i.e. Seers / Mystics / Gnostics) called ‘chosen’ and ‘beloved of God.’

Any comments on this?

Peace, Love, & Understanding

Hi,

Regarding Israel, maight I throw in another interpretation?

ISh- "Man"
RA- "Evil"
EL- "God"

Syllabilical analysis;
Should we spell "IS-" Yod+Shin, we get "I-Sh" which is Ish/Man.
Should we spell "IS-" Yod+Samech, we get only "IS" which is NOTgematrically equivalent to Yod/Shin. Infer what you will.

Should we spell the next syllable "Resh+Aleph" we get RA or RE for Ayin, or whatever else depending on the adjoining Nikkud (vowel diacritic).

Should we spell "EL" literally, we get a traditional old way of spelling meaning "God" in context of Elohim, the feminine passive manifestation of the creator IN creation, YHWH is the level above it.

My interpretation is therefore "Man, Evil, God" depending on the exact pronounciation lost at the moment with variyng vowel Nikkud, the gnostic could infer that the title is given to a man/people that accept the evil demiurge God of gnosticism, rejecting the Logos.
The Judaic counterpoint would be completely different, the only humans to accept the covenant with the creator, being it a monotheistic religion by definition.
There are many varying and most the time contradictory ideas between Judaism/Kabbalah and Gnosticism. Most ideas in both are polluted by exotericism nowadays however, the story's between the two are two different perpectives of describing the same things.

My ranting probably doesn't make any sense, so don't think too deep into it.

Admin wrote:However, the first century (CE) Jewish mystic and scholar, Philo Judaeus, gave a much better, more intelligible, and logical definition of the term. He claimed it meant “one who sees God” – from three Hebrew (root) words: ’ish (= a ‘man’ / ‘intelligent being’); ra’eh (= 'vision' / ‘seeing’); and ’el (= ‘God’ / ‘Supreme Spirit’).

Do you have the treatise name, chapter and verse reference where Philo asserted this?

Kind regards,
Jonathan

En Hakkore wrote:

Admin wrote:However, the first century (CE) Jewish mystic and scholar, Philo Judaeus, gave a much better, more intelligible, and logical definition of the term. He claimed it meant “one who sees God” – from three Hebrew (root) words: ’ish (= a ‘man’ / ‘intelligent being’); ra’eh (= 'vision' / ‘seeing’); and ’el (= ‘God’ / ‘Supreme Spirit’).

Do you have the treatise name, chapter and verse reference where Philo asserted this?

Kind regards,
Jonathan

Yes.

Treatise 13, 'On Drunkenness', XX, 82-83.
Treatise 17, 'Who is the Heir of Divine Things', XV, 78
Treatise 18, 'On Mating with the Preliminary Studies', X, 51
Treatise 19, 'On Flight & Finding', XXXVIII, 208
Treatise 20, 'On the Change of Names', XII, 81
Treatise 21, 'On Dreams', (book 1) XXVII, 171
Treatise 21, 'On Dreams', (book 2) XXVI, 173
Treatise 22, 'On Abraham', XII, 57

PLU

...and Israel is the name of perfection, for the name being interpreted means "the sight of God"...
Against Drunkenness XX.82

But he who advanced further outwards, not only seeing God, was called Israel; the meaning of which name is "seeing God".
Who is the Heir of Divine Things XV.78

It is given, therefore, to the most excellent race to see the most excellent of things, namely, the really living God; for the name Israel, being interpreted, means "seeing God".
On Mating with the Preliminary Studies X.51

...but seeing is the inheritance of the legitimate and first-born son, Israel; for the name Israel, being interpreted, means "seeing God".
On Flight and Finding XXXVIII.208

Because the name Jacob means "a supplanter", but the name Israel signifies "the man who sees God".
On the Change of Names XII.81

...and being called Israel, that is, "the man who sees God", instead of Jacob, that is, "the supplanter"...
On Dreams - Book 1 XXVII.171

Now Israel is the mind inclined to the contemplation of God and of the world; for the name Israel is interpreted, "seeing God"...
On Dreams - Book 2 XXVI.173

And its name shows its power; for the nation is further called, in the language of the Hebrews, Israel, which name being interpreted means, "seeing God".
On Abraham XII.57

Thanks for the references, Bob... I've reproduced them here for further discussion.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

Admin wrote:Orthodoxy has always tried to hide the fact that God may truly be seen and heard by certain individuals, and has tried to mask the true meaning of the term Israel.

While I would concur that both contemporary Jewish and Christian 'orthodoxy' reject the notion that God can be seen even though the earliest stories in the Old Testament portray a God who could be seen (see Exodus 24:9-11; Numbers 12:8) and while I would further concur that there has been an attempt to mask the meaning of the name 'Israel', I would reject the notion that original meaning had to do with seeing God.

Admin wrote:They claim that ISRAEL simply means "struggles with God".

This claim is solidly grounded in the earliest story regarding Jacob's name change:

And he said: "Never again will your name be said 'Jacob' for such is now 'Israel' (ישראל) because you fought(שרית) with God (אלהים) and with men and you were able."
Genesis 32:29 (v. 28 in English translations)

The name 'Israel' (ישראל) derives from the Qal imperfect third person masculine form of the verb 'to fight' (ישרה) together with a truncated form of 'God' (אל)... 'he fights (with) God'. This notion of physical contact between Jacob and the divine, however, was rejected by later Israelite writers who wrote an alternative version of the name change:

And God said to him: "Your name is Jacob but your name will never again be called 'Jacob' for now 'Israel' will be your name." And he called his name Israel and God said to him: "I am God Almighty - be fruitful and increase! A nation and the assembly of nations will be from you and kings will come forth from your loins!"
Genesis 35:10-11

Here God is narrated as changing Jacob's name in the context of promising him that he would be the father of a nation and of kings, suggesting that the name 'Israel' (ישראל) has royal significance... 'prince' (שר) of 'God' (אל).

Admin wrote:However, the first century (CE) Jewish mystic and scholar, Philo Judaeus, gave a much better, more intelligible, and logical definition of the term. He claimed it meant “one who sees God” – from three Hebrew (root) words: ’ish (= a ‘man’ / ‘intelligent being’); ra’eh (= 'vision' / ‘seeing’); and ’el (= ‘God’ / ‘Supreme Spirit’). This is clearly a much more logical and Spiritual explanation of the title ("Is-ra-el") than that held by orthodoxy.

With all due respect to Philo, this suggested meaning derives from very loose phonetics and not any legitimate etymological roots. The word for 'man' (ish) is איש and the word for 'seeing' (ro'eh) is ראה. When these words are combined in the manner proposed by Philo, half of the letters must simply vanish and by so doing'man' becomes instead the substantive particle for existence יש and the verb 'seeing' simply becomes the letter ר (or the א could be seen as doubling up with the initial א in the truncated word for 'God' and therefore only two letters drop by necessity). Philo's suggestion is, at best, an etymology even more stretched than that proposed by the later priestly writers in Genesis 35:10-11 and unfortunately not a better or more logical meaning for 'Israel'.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

En Hakkore wrote:

Admin wrote:They claim that ISRAEL simply means "struggles with God".

This claim is solidly grounded in the earliest story regarding Jacob's name change:

And he said: "Never again will your name be said 'Jacob' for such is now 'Israel' because you fought with God and with men and you were able."
Genesis 32:29 (v. 28 in English translations)

The name 'Israel' derives from the Qal imperfect third person masculine form of the verb 'to fight' together with a truncated form of 'God'... 'he fights (with) God'. This notion of physical contact between Jacob and the divine, however, was rejected by later Israelite writers who wrote an alternative version of the name change:

And God said to him: "Your name is Jacob but your name will never again be called 'Jacob' for now 'Israel' will be your name." And he called his name Israel and God said to him: "I am God Almighty - be fruitful and increase! A nation and the assembly of nations will be from you and kings will come forth from your loins!"
Genesis 35:10-11

Here God is narrated as changing Jacob's name in the context of promising him that he would be the father of a nation and of kings, suggesting that the name 'Israel' has royal significance... 'prince'.

I am no authority on the ancient Hebrew language, but I have read that much of it has been lost since the Babylonian exile. In the preface and introductions to the NEW ENGLISH BIBLE (c.1970), the team of translators state (concerning the OLD TESTAMENT): “There are passages where, in the present state of our knowledge, no one could say with certainty which of two (or even more) possible meanings is intended… There is probably no member of the panel [of translators] who has not found himself obliged to give up, perhaps with lingering regret, a cherished view about the meaning of this or that difficult passage… It is certain that this (i.e. the ‘received’ text of the Hebrew Old Testament) does not always represent what was originally written… many obscurities still remain in the Hebrew Scriptures. The classical Hebrew vocabulary as known today is small, with the consequence that the meaning of an unusually large number of words is uncertain or unknown.”

Therefore, I conclude that the etymology of a highly educated and well respected Jewish mystic of the first century like Philo, would be as reliable (or even more so) than that of the Spiritually ignorant orthodox authorities.

Maybe I am biased, but the passage in question would make much more sense to me with Israel meaning a 'SEER' of God, rather than a 'fighter', and would also answer the question why (genuine) Israelites ('SEERS' or 'Gnostics') were considered "chosen" people.

En Hakkore wrote:

Admin wrote:However, the first century (CE) Jewish mystic and scholar, Philo Judaeus, gave a much better, more intelligible, and logical definition of the term. He claimed it meant “one who sees God” – from three Hebrew (root) words: ’ish (= a ‘man’ / ‘intelligent being’); ra’eh (= 'vision' / ‘seeing’); and ’el (= ‘God’ / ‘Supreme Spirit’). This is clearly a much more logical and Spiritual explanation of the title ("Is-ra-el") than that held by orthodoxy.

With all due respect to Philo, this suggested meaning derives from very loose phonetics and not any legitimate etymological roots. The word for 'man' (ish) is איש and the word for 'seeing' (ro'eh) is ראה. When these words are combined in the manner proposed by Philo, half of the letters must simply vanish and by so doing 'man' becomes instead the substantive particle for existence יש and the verb 'seeing' simply becomes the letter ר (or the א could be seen as doubling up with the initial א in the truncated word for 'God' and therefore only two letters drop by necessity). Philo's suggestion is, at best, an etymology even more stretched than that proposed by the later priestly writers in Genesis 35:10-11 and unfortunately not a better or more logical meaning for 'Israel'.

Are there no other examples of words being combined to make a new word or name, and shortened for convenience sake?

As I say, Philo's view simply makes more sense to me.

PLU

This is very illuminating. I am not going to figure in on this JUST yet. I am sill chewing the wonderful food for thought still, let me digest some and see what comes out, heh heh.

Please continue...

Bob You mention that the children of Israel are considered by some to be Gods chosen. I think also carrying the meaning outward as to who these children are. And with any Scriptural referance as to the ones recieving the post generations up till now. realy would tell us in a better light as to area and size of this grown tree and the ones being talk about.
The analyzation of the name Israel is truely interesting indeed. The Spirit has never lead me to that depth of seeking in that one name to such interesting context contributed by manny here. very enjoyable reading for dicernment.

The chosen by difinition of almost all traditional Church as you know consider the country name Israel with its occupants being that same Israel talked about in the Bible. By the discussion so far here with proof you can see, it was a man not a place. Even with asking any Jewish person, they themselves will tell you they are of the tribe of Juda. The man, Israel had twelve Sons which were to be named after the tribes and given a portion of the land to each. except Johseph which was to recieve a double portion, for good reason also. But of the twelve, the tribe of Juda was only one of them, but none the less important also. but they are that, is were Israel is today. God says You will prosper and be nations and an assembly of nations. The tribe of Juda never has done that, but rather repressed even furthur, till only recently in history aquiring the land they live in today.
The chosen whom are from Israel the man which will be twelve trives will total the 144,000 at the Consumation and scriptures tells of 12,000 from each tribe, and list every tribe by name. So yes 12,000 only will come from Juda or todays Israel.
I have more on the other tribes, and where they went, especialy Joseph, but at this time with all the information out today I am interested in leaveing it here...for now.

Many blessing Folks, and good Subject indeed

Brother Thomas

12 symbols on the zodiac, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 disciples, ... Interesting coorelations indeed.

I don't know if you can make any sense of this, but maybe you'll find it interesting....

Dear XX


I have what I think is a very good book on
numerology called "Numerology and the divine triangle" by Faith Javane and Dusty
Bunker.
(It looks like they have put a whole lot of work
into it. I'd recommend it. They're good with math too.)

This book reinforces what G said about "12 types"
and connects the 12 disciples with the Old Testament 12 sons of Jacob / the 12
tribes.[/size]
"12 attributes to be awakened in the human
soul"............

And it mentions the Zodiac. - The Chinese Zodiac is
also 12 signs.

Something more I found: "The Book of Revelation
12:1 mentions a woman - usually interpreted as Virgin Mary - wearing a crown of
twelve stars."
I looked it up. It's right.
More: "It had a great, high wall with twelve gates,
and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the
twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north,
three on the south and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve
foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of The Lamb." (I
think that's from the Revelation as well.)[/size]
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either
side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of
fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for
the healing of the nations." (Another Bible passage.)




Understanding numbers above 10 is hard. As they are
on higher octaves and it's not that obvious how to interpret them.
F.ex - 12 can be connected with 6 or 3. Or even 4.
Not that easy. In numerology / sacred geometry there aren't really anything
above 10..........

Interesting though: Both the
western/middle-eastern/Egyptian Zodiac and the Chinese have 12
signs.
In the 4th way cosmology 12 is the number of the
Sun.

So...something about the influence of the higher
world on ours? And at the same time the portal/initiation into that higher
world?[/size]
(initiation - disciples) Adds a new angle to the
concept "sun worship" as well.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your figure with 12 points on the Enneagram....
That's where the law of 3 and the law of 7 meet.




Twelve are below
seven are above them

and three are above the seven.
From these three
He founded His abode

and all of them depend on One.
Sefer Yetzirah

Analysis:

One= God
Three=Law of 3
Seven=Law of 7
Twelve=..........?
It's mentioned in "The Christian Mystery"
by R. Collin: "The soul is joined to the spirit at 12
places[/size]."
- Triangle:Spirit, 6-pointed
shape:Soul/type/work to create soul. I think this is the
key.

Any comments of yours are of course welcome. Maybe
this even connects to "the triads"? And maybe there's more than just 1
meaning?

I'd call this "Sacred mathematics".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I now and then send people to check out your
website. It's the only 4W resource on the net that I'd recommend.

B


contact points. That's what I think they are. The higher world descending
on
this one as12 "points."
And at the same time these 12 points are
portals (the portal) to the higher
world.

I think for now I can't come
any closer in understanding this.

I think this is the stuff of Higher
Intellectual centre. G said the higher
intellectual deals with
"symbols".
Symbols/numbers - same
thing.
------------------------------
Can also be the types at the same
time.
There are no 7 types. (Solar is "extra"). There are 6.
Though of
course they can be even more presicely divided into
18.

example:
Lunar-Jupiter ("Halftype" leaning more towards preceeding
type)
Lunar-Lunar ("Centre-of-gravity" type)
Lunar-Venus ("Halftype"
leaning more towards next type)

continued:
Venus-Lunar (Has more of
Venus in it than the
Lunar-Venus)
Venus-Venus..............
Venus-Mercury...........

=3
sub-types of 1 main type. X 6=18.

(Each sub-type each sub-type w/ a
strong Solar influence make 36 types.)

But not really 12, I think. Then
there must be the outer planets/stars
involved
in combination with the
usual 6/7.

B

tweleve tribes 12 apostles ... represant gods chosen ones abrahams decendents and the new testement church equels 144 in revelation meaning totall number perfect number. the gematria insinuates totality not specifly 144,000 but the fullness of his people. revelations is the new testement
exodus.every # has an esoteric meaning, even time limit is insinuated by the use of the term 1/2 an hour.andin rev2/21 says igave her time to repent.the star prophecy concerning the magi is also in rvl
2.there are also 12 rewards ,12 curses. and the leaves of the tree for the healing of the nations ,yhis was translated pharmicia but in lite of ancient text recovery it is now translated therapia.
ibelieve in the trinity of god like this . in genisis god created in his image male and femal and they produced child. god{mind,father} spirt{love,mother} son { child, perfect love perfect wisdom]

Israel is the only Jewish state and she is the center of the Middle East, as Jerusalem is the center of Israel. Its important to note here that there is a distinct difference in Jewish views of the Messiah versus the Christian view of the Messiah. G-d says "I will curse those who curse who and bless those who bless you" its often said that Judaism is the only religion G-d ever created.....though that could be a misnomer since Judaism is a man made religion. Israel has been cursed and denied her rightful place in the Middle East since the state was formed. She has had to fight for her very existence from the very start.

Gray Ghost wrote:Israel is the only Jewish state and she is the center of the Middle East, as Jerusalem is the center of Israel. Its important to note here that there is a distinct difference in Jewish views of the Messiah versus the Christian view of the Messiah. G-d says "I will curse those who curse who and bless those who bless you" its often said that Judaism is the only religion G-d ever created.....though that could be a misnomer since Judaism is a man made religion. Israel has been cursed and denied her rightful place in the Middle East since the state was formed. She has had to fight for her very existence from the very start.

But the whole point of this thread is to demonstrate the huge DIFFERENCE (and the error in understanding) between the original SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, and the worldly physical state and religion! (see the O.P.).

PLU ~ Bob

Ooooooops sorry I must ahve mis read the OP.........my apologies..........