islam

by brBenjamin on Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:16 pm

A Taoist story tells of an old man who accidentally fell into the river rapids leading to a high and dangerous waterfall. Onlookers feared for his life. Miraculously, he came out alive and unharmed downstream at the bottom of the falls. People asked him how he managed to survive.

"I accommodated myself to the water, not the water to me. Without thinking, I allowed myself to be shaped by it. Plunging into the swirl, I came out with the swirl. This is how I survived."

"To be 'lost' is to be left to the arbitrariness and pretenses of the contingent ego, the smoke-self that must inevitable vanish. To be 'saved' is to return to one's inviolate and eternal reality and to live in God."
-Thomas
Merton

islam means submission

to me this is Gnostic....

heurgy: being a hollow reed...

the key being "submission" as opposed manipulation

like the man in the story...he was changed by the river....he didnt attempt to change the river

really if one thinks about it, this is kabbalah...to receive....

vessels and light or give and receive....I forget the hebrew..but everything is made up of vessels and light

there never is any instance of take at all

there is no need to take, as there is nothing to gain

all there is, is love....

to love you must give of yourself....utterly

like the aten..with its hands....it gives..it gives and it gives
this is love, unconditional love

Everything really is included in the golden rule, literally everything else is commentary....

The most profound teachings really are the simplest....

I love fractals

of course, I could be wrong...shrug

--Ben

When God gave the Torah to the Israelites, He opened the seven heavens to them and they saw that nothing was really there but His glory; He opened the seven worlds (or "earths") to them and they saw nothing there but His glory; He opened the seven abysses (or "hells") before their eyes and they saw nothing there but His glory.

Moses De Leon

by DarkChylde on Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:52 pm

I do not feel it is about submission, but about decision.

But that is just me.

It all begins with choice. We MUST have freedom of choice (and the ability to make the wrong ones AND learn from it) in order to truly grow, no?

by Admin on Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:47 am

DarkChylde wrote:I do not feel it is about submission, but about decision.

But that is just me.

It all begins with choice. We MUST have freedom of choice (and the ability to make the wrong ones AND learn from it) in order to truly grow, no?

Maybe it is the decision to submit (to God)? Very Happy

by DarkChylde on Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:09 am

Well, according to Webster, submit comes from the Latin, submitto to put under; sub - under, and mitto - to send. I know that my conscience, ('in my heart') my barometer that tells me what is right and what is wrong, is God working thru me, and that everything I do is my own decision, and God is involved in it THUR me (and you, and everyone else who is alive and listening (or not) to their conscience), and that MY 'God', giver only of Light and Love, wouldn't be interested in my 'submission', but in my decision to chose to do good (or not).
While most religions preach and teach submission, I would think that to find God within would be to send yourself. God is within you, and all around you. Why is submission necessary? My God only gives Love. That requires no submission. Neither does Light. I do not require God submit to me (Can I have this? Can I have that? Will you make this or that happen?) nor does God require submission of me.

It is much like training a horse. All my teaching of a horse is to gain his respect, not to make him (or her) submissive. I want a partner, not a slave. I am quite sure God feels that way about me, but to the upteenth degree.

by brBenjamin on Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:04 am

DarkChylde wrote:Well, according to Webster, submit comes from the Latin, submitto to put under; sub - under, and mitto - to send. I know that my conscience, ('in my heart') my barometer that tells me what is right and what is wrong, is God working thru me, and that everything I do is my own decision, and God is involved in it THUR me (and you, and everyone else who is alive and listening (or not) to their conscience), and that MY 'God', giver only of Light and Love, wouldn't be interested in my 'submission', but in my decision to chose to do good (or not).
While most religions preach and teach submission, I would think that to find God within would be to send yourself. God is within you, and all around you. Why is submission necessary? My God only gives Love. That requires no submission. Neither does Light. I do not require God submit to me (Can I have this? Can I have that? Will you make this or that happen?) nor does God require submission of me.

It is much like training a horse. All my teaching of a horse is to gain his respect, not to make him (or her) submissive. I want a partner, not a slave. I am quite sure God feels that way about me, but to the upteenth degree.

Are you the river or the dam?
You can pretend to hold back the ocean all you like.....
But the ocean will flow....
Give yourself away.....It is the Gnostic way
Why is it that one wanders through samsara?
The answer is that one wanders because of the confusion of not knowing one’s own nature.
For example, if a person possesses a stone containing gold in his fire place,
He might, when not recognizing it to be gold, undergo the misery of starvation.
Likewise, when your master points out your essence, it is an expression of great kindness.
– Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen: A Commentary on The Quintessence of Spiritual Practice, The Direct Instructions of the Great Compassionate One by Chokyi Rinpoche (page 1113)

Self improvement is wonderful. However many seem to think it is about getting something. I gained a new shiny copper penny…. Really self improvement is about knowing what you already are (in the context of “spirituality”) imo…
Like king Arthur, you are asleep, dreaming…waiting to awaken when needed. Often the first teaching is the last. A bird flies, it doesnt gain anything by learning to fly; the ability to fly is already inherent within it.……………….

Jesus says:
“Come to know what is in front of you, and that which is hidden from you will become clear to you. For there is nothing hidden that will not become manifest.”

–Gospel of Thomas

……………………………………..

When my Beloved appears,
With what eye do I see Him?
With His eye, not with mine,
For none sees Him except Himself.
— ibn al-`Arabi

by DarkChylde on Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:02 am

Beautifully put, but I do not understand what that has to do with the post I made about submission.

And I am a spirit trapped/housed in corruptable, dying flesh. Neither rivers or dams can type on forums.

When you speak in metaphor, you run a good chance of being misunderstood. Christ was alot better at it than we are.... Rolling Eyes

(and even HE has been misunderstood...)

by theeternaliam on Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:49 am

One of the best "reasons" for "submission" to God is learning humility. Also, one learns devotion. Relationship w/ God can often be almost like a romantic relationship, maybe more though, like the "traditional", where one submits fully to one's lover always trying to please them. Surely I would agree w/ you that God is our Highest Self, but I also like to imagine God as "other" than me. He is my Beloved(to borrow a Sufi phrase).

Although God is yer True Being, do you still pray to Him for guidance?

by theeternaliam on Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:50 am

By the way, I love the Thomas Merton quote,I just began reading "Conttemplative Prayer" Coincidence, I think not Wink

by DarkChylde on Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:28 pm

If you truly wish to find God, first start from within....

I train horses. I do not seek submission, I seek an understanding. I do not use pain or fear when I train, I don't want a slave but a partner. I feel this is the relationship God wants to have with us.

As in the movie The Kingdom of Heaven, the princess of Jerusalem said to Balian when speaking of the muslim and christain faiths, "Muhammad said, 'submit'. Christ said, 'decide'."

If I want God's guidance, I ask my conscience. "Gnosis is the knowledge of the heart..." Valentinus

by theeternaliam on Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:13 am

I definetely agree w/ you DC, but imagining myself as God's Slave or Servant creates a sort of Humility and a lack of caring about my self. I do believe God wants what we want for how could we want it unless God does too, but I just like to imagine myself as totally dependent on God as His Son/Servant and I feel that when I've left the womb of my Mother I'll be given the opportunity to tend the fields w/ my Father as His Partner.(to paraphrase Christ).

I think that "submitting" to God and "choosing" to follow His/Your True Will is simply a matter of perception that can be used for practical purposes(I don't like the way that sounds, but ah well) scratch

by DarkChylde on Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:49 pm

theeternaliam wrote:I definetely agree w/ you DC, but imagining myself as God's Slave or Servant creates a sort of Humility and a lack of caring about my self. I do believe God wants what we want for how could we want it unless God does too, but I just like to imagine myself as totally dependent on God as His Son/Servant and I feel that when I've left the womb of my Mother I'll be given the opportunity to tend the fields w/ my Father as His Partner.(to paraphrase Christ).

I think that "submitting" to God and "choosing" to follow His/Your True Will is simply a matter of perception that can be used for practical purposes(I don't like the way that sounds, but ah well)

Perhaps you don't like the way it sounds because something inside you says 'that's not right.'

I think to be a slave is to negate your free will, even if by your own decision to give it up. I don't think an all loving and givng God WANTS a bunch of slaves, that is what the founder of religion, s. a. tan, the demiurge, wants. Control and power want submisson and slavery. We are given free will, and to give it up is to give up self-accountability as well.

Predestination is never having to say your sorry. Razz

by theeternaliam on Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:40 am

I don't think it's about giving up one's free will, but more like recognizing God's Will as My True Will, unchanging and eternal. Choosing to serve(or being His slave, matter of semantics Wink

), is in my view, sort of like abdicating one's crown or wealth, recognizing its futility. The King that's willing to serve has no fear of losing his freedom, knowing he will always be free and knowing that no appearance can change it. By God's Grace,I have no fear of losing my autonomy by serving God. In fact, I feel it is the only way of being Autonomous. In serving the King, I am the King, or at least inheritor of His Kingdom(fear of being blasphemous caused me to add that last part Laughing

)

by The_Passerby on Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:54 am

Many don't really understand the concept of "Submission" to be honest there is a force which works upon us, and submission is key to requiring a degree of wholeness and before that overcoming the natural twist which can occur that can cause you to turn upon the ideal you are seeking, turning upon your first principles in a mechanical illusion.

The reason why we must be "submissive" is because we are reflective, we are reflective to the Higher Heavenly, and thus since our God from this level is our Higher Beings of Light, we must submit to its Light and energy, not draw upon or place external sources/vices (the God) of this world as our source, but perceive this Reality that is Greater than you your Genuine Source. We must become a perfect relation, also using the energy that is given and putting it into achieving cosmic balance from our Upper Indwelling Natures to the Lesser voids of our being which needs development and rectification, using such energy to expand our minds. Submission is not being a slave, but being a active/reflective partner, one of which is in a growing union with that which is not of this world, which sign of your submission is to be apart from the world, in it but not of it ever drawing upon and reflecting in all that you do, your Indwelling Higher Being within its field and not of this world, ever drawing upon that which can complete you. We must become a Wife to our Divine Counterpart, Our Higher Authentic Soul of Light and to draw upon the world, which is to become ONE with the God of this World and its vices which entangle us in that union which ends our growth, is to become a whore that clings to the things that pertain in this world (Egypt, physical bondage) that people give their energy over to, "It came to pass after much depravity, said the lord, you built yourself a brothel and you made yourself a beautiful place in the streets. And you built yourself brothels on every lane, and you wasted your beauty, and you spread your legs in every alley, and you multiplied your acts of prostitution. You prostituted yourself to the sons of Egypt, those who are your neighbors, men great of flesh." (Exegesis of the Soul, Ezekiel 16:23-26). We must become a reflective + active partner to our indwelling Source. A I mentioned in the above, there is a point where there is often a limitation that is organically composed by the forces which work upon the mind, this point is where we must utilize great discernment and submission and not try to force things, as in seeking to believe that we have acquired completion, but to have in mind "It's not my will, BUT THINE WILL BE DONE," STAYING EVER CONSCIOUSLY REFLECTIVE/ACTIVE towards applying ourselves.

Again submission has nothing to do with slavery or lack of free will. There is only "free choice" in consciousness, most aren't conscious, in fact as I mentioned above they are upon in cyclic illusions of thinking they are utilizing free will, but they are no more free than the prisoner that has chains wrapped around every inch of their frame in ignorance, doing the same routines, the same reactions daily, only in illusion counting them as new because of the linear perception of time and the the change of appearance, but the stimulus is just the same... completely on auto-pilot. Many are in a illusion of having control, but they are themselves controlled and bound, but don't see it. To be in consciousness you have to grasp ahold of the NOW, being in submission is a manner in which you can bridge the gaps which can cause you to fall, bringing you back at the beginning without any progress. Sumit to the field of your Soul, what did Yeshua say? "the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." (John 14:10 KJV) And an example of submission to overcome a interval of testing/trial, is seen in, "if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42 KVJ) Also another example of this submission to overcome a interval which can cause you to become mechanical and turn upon your first principle by the Laws of this World, you know what just noticed how the whole of the 4th chapter in James is about this very issue... to be honest this is very esoteric, not in the way and manner that scriptures are, but this letter expresses a lot. I want to post this whole chapter, I am no scripture dependent individual as you guys have seen in my other posts, however this is so important to the discussion of submission, bear with me,

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.... Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:2-10, 13-17 KJV)... lol see I don't read bible and stuff at all really, but when I go back and look at it, I can see so much more of what is being conveyed, this is truly amazing really what is presented here. It's spectacular the gravity of what is being conveyed on many levels.

by theeternaliam on Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:58 am

Bless you, brother, I needed that reminder. I feel as if I was beginning to fall into the trap of worldliness today.I almost forgot my Origins and Goal. A blessed reminder from Spirit. Thank you and may His Peace and Grace Abide Within You.

by DarkChylde on Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:18 am

Don't confuse freedom with free will. A prisoner has free will, but the jailer has taken away his ability to ACT on it...

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Submission is not slavery O_o

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