Re: Gnostic vs. New age

by sopherim7 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:22 am

really awesome discourse here every one it is so enjoyable to read and learn from you all. what great depth and insight from everyone.

and hello christopher, welcome to our little love haven

flower

sopherim

by Heather on Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:21 am

The_Passerby wrote:To add,

Titles are useful to measure a capacity in regards to what one must fulfill within themselves. Like being a Christian holds a responsibility and degrees of requirement to fulfill the "word" or mindset within you. It can be a conscious measure to your growth in fulfillment if the name or title is understood. At that point it becomes a formula for BEING, a symbolic formula for remembrance and further expansion. Sort of like the phrase, "Know Thy Self" -- in all honesty this is the formula of Gnostics. A person who calls themselves Gnostic, this world gives off a certain vibration, impression, and have definite characters which sum up its mindset or reality. A person who calls themselves Gnostic is one who seeks the Divine Manna of the Kingdom, that Nectar of Light which hangs from the higher indwellings of ones Innate Being. So to be a Gnostic means that one is applying within themselves what can help them to connect to the Light which radiates within them, which all things can proven in and also in regards ones view of the world. For it must always remember that these are words, Gnosis has a meaning.

So in regards myself, I AM not only a Gnostic -- I AM a Ebionite which is a "Poor one" (i.e. Poor in the ways of the world -- in the world but not of it -- a passerby) -- I AM a Nazirene (Nazir -- a Keeper of The Way, one who is a vow of Being of Consecration). I AM these things because I fulfill these realities within myself DAILY and attempt to in an even stream of the NOW. I could not be a Ebionite if I didn't fulfill within myself what a Ebionite is, and this fulfillment has varying levels and degrees till one achieves perfections. So in this way or perspective a title can be a measure of growth -- AN Formula Ideal which carries over till perfection. In it remembrance can flourish. It is a Written Symbolic Formula and one must apply the Key to Knowledge.

For instance, I could not be a Yogi, that path would not be good for me, I could not be a monk either. What they do to fulfill the title in themselves is not compatible with the manner I do.

Just dropping perspectives by.

Hello, i had to give this topic a rest for a while because i was getting so upset that i couldn't understand what people were trying to say. I had hoped this issue would have resolved itself by now, but i'm still on it.

I agree with what you're saying here. Did i give the impression that i label myself as new age? i do not. my beliefs were being labeled new age by someone else- and in a negative way. I'm just still so confused about this. It really is out of character for me to care much about how i am labeled by others, but it's coming from a group of people that i really respect and admire. I guess i still just don't get what the negative meaning of new age is.

by Heather on Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:39 am

Christopher_Barnett22 wrote:First of all.. I would like to say how happy that I am to have found a website populated with gnostic peoples whom I can openly discuss my views with. I have never met another gnostic before and I am somewhat reluctant to post for the first time, but My star has lead me here so I guess I should try to make first contact

Let me start by saying that "new age" is a very broad category and it like the catholic church has assimilated everything that was "spiritual" and left behind a hollow shell of what it was before. For example.. Tarot cards. Tarot cards are gnostic in origin and they are a powerful tool for gnosis but if used in the way that the "new age" peoples describe they are a crutch.. another short cut. It seems to me that the new age movement wants to have power without consequence and the answers without the journey. A way out of troubles without ever breaking a sweat. This to me seems ridiculous and foolish. If I were to tell you E=MC2 what would it mean? In reality.. nothing. You need the knowledge of physics and matchmatics to really understand and that comes from years of devoted study and sacrifice to obtain the knowledge.

However, I do believe there are exceptions. Gnosis makes one a gnositc, not by reading the brouchure. Don't get me wrong.. The journey was not easy and I have been "lost in the desert" for 16 years because my southern baptist clothes no longer fit, but I found valildation of my beliefs in reading the gnostic texts & for the first time I felt that I was not insane. I found my home.

Hello

Thank you so much for your post. I think i understand the negative meaning of new age, now. I'm still not sure that i agree with it, though.
I am interested in Tarot. I have a deck and i enjoy learning to use them. Is that new age? I have learned a lot from many different paths and have not "signed on" with any of them. is that new age? The way i see it, i searched until i found what fit w/ my own beliefs- and i learned a lot on the way. I know i am not shallow. Most people i know who i would consider new age are exceptionally good, kind and loving people. Yes, their are those who don their "spiritual" garb and have a fake smile. their are those who ignore their anger and deep emoton and pretend to be happy. Those people are everywhere! They are in "the new age movement", they are in every walk of humanity. That doesn't make new age shallow, that makes the individual shallow, if anything. And atleast these people are pretending or aspiring to be on a really positive path.
- Heather

by Prism1111 on Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:41 am

Bob writes; by Admin on Thu May 15, 2008 6:48 am
When Yehoshua said: "there is no other way (to Elohim) but through me" He was actually correct. But He was ONLY speaking to His contemporary disciples (i.e. those who followed Him 2,000 years ago!) because He was THEIR LIVING MASTER (AT THAT TIME).

I was reading from the beginning of this thread, and always have wondered why of your point of view upon the necsesity of the physical master within this world Bob. I consider You a great friend indeed and extremely reverant to all that you say and believe, also never to deminish that in anyway. In a way it does answer the question as to Christs 11 years teaching After His resurection to His disciples of the Mysteries in their intirity being mentioned hear as in Pistis Sophia. within the Criteria of a Physical master, one could not take this to the degree of that which it was meant to enlighten.
So I guess my question is the part you say But He was ONLY speaking to His contemporary disciples I am wondering were is suporting understanding or scriptures that draws you to believe this, that there is a need outside of ourselves to attaine the Father in all oneness. Call me a seeking Spirit of all understanding Very Happy

.

Bro Thomas........ Basketball

by Admin on Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:01 am

Hi Heather

I have no idea what "New Age" is. scratch

I suspect it means different things to different people. The 'Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary' defines it thus:
connected with a way of life that rejects modern Western values and is based on spiritual ideas and beliefs.
So, according to this definition, I, too, am "new age". flower

I do not like labels - they tend to separate us, and give false impressions. So take no notice of what others say about you, or how they classify you, and simply discover and BE your(TRUE)SELF. sunny

Peace, Love, & Understanding ~ Bob Very Happy

by Admin on Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:22 am

Prism1111 wrote:Bob writes; by Admin on Thu May 15, 2008 6:48 am
When Yehoshua said: "there is no other way (to Elohim) but through me" He was actually correct. But He was ONLY speaking to His contemporary disciples (i.e. those who followed Him 2,000 years ago!) because He was THEIR LIVING MASTER (AT THAT TIME).

I was reading from the beginning of this thread, and always have wondered why of your point of view upon the necsesity of the physical master within this world Bob. I consider You a great friend indeed and extremely reverant to all that you say and believe, also never to deminish that in anyway. In a way it does answer the question as to Christs 11 years teaching After His resurection to His disciples of the Mysteries in their intirity being mentioned hear as in Pistis Sophia. within the Criteria of a Physical master, one could not take this to the degree of that which it was meant to enlighten.
So I guess my question is the part you say But He was ONLY speaking to His contemporary disciples I am wondering were is suporting understanding or scriptures that draws you to believe this, that there is a need outside of ourselves to attaine the Father in all oneness. Call me a seeking Spirit of all understanding .

Bro Thomas........

Hi Thomas, I will give you a pile of scripture to wade through and see what you come up with.
N.B. The Hebrew 'YAHWEH' refers to the anthropomorphic God (i.e. the 'man-God' / Messiah / Divine Master):

“Behold! I (God) send a Messenger to you, to guide you on the Path, and to bring you to the place which I have prepared (i.e. the Heavenly / Spiritual Kingdom). Take heed of Him and listen to His voice. Do not defy Him; He will not pardon your rebelliousness, for My Name is in Him.” (EXOD.23:20-21).

“I (God), Myself, will appoint a faithful Priest who will serve Me without question; and I will establish His succession to walk among you all (in the presence of everyone) as My Messiah for ever.” (1^stSAM.2:35).

“Your Masters (Divine Teachers) will no longer be hidden from sight, but with your own eyes you may see Them [always!].” (ISAIAH 30:20).

“Here is My Servant whom I (God) uphold, My ‘Chosen One’ in whom My Spirit delights. I have endowed Him with My Spirit so that He may bring true Justice to the nations.” (ISAIAH 42:1).

“The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives, and release from darkness for the prisoners.” (ISAIAH 61:1).

“Say in your hearts: Master, it is you that we must worship. For My (God’s) Messenger is with you; your lives are in His care.” (BARUCH 6:5-6).

“The Messenger (Angel) of the Lord met her (Hagar) near a spring of water in the wilderness… and she called the Lord (Yahweh) who spoke to her El roi, for, she said: I have here seen God.” (GEN.16:7 & 13).

“Yahweh Elohim (the Lord God) will raise up for you another Prophet like me (Moses) from among you – one of your brothers; to him you must listen.” (DEUT.18:15).

“Moses called all the Israelites and said to them: ‘You have seen all the things that your Lord did before your eyes in Egypt… all those signs and great wonders! But to this day, you have noheart to know your Lord, no eyes to see, no ears to hear! I (Moses) have led you for forty years in the wilderness… that you might know that I (Moses) am the Lord your God’.” (DEUT.29:2-6). Then, a little later: “See now that I (Moses), I AM HE; there is no other God but me!” (DEUT.32:39).

“This is a rebellious people, lying children who will not listen to the Lord’s instructions. To the Seers they say: ‘See no visions’; and to the Prophets: ‘Do not reveal the Truth to us; rather give us flattering words and false visions; turn aside from the way, leave the path, and take the Holy One out of our sight!’” (ISAIAH 30:9-11).

“Hear this: from the very beginning I (Yahweh) have never spoken obscurely, I have been present from the start, even now (i.e. several centuries BC) God (Elohim) sends Me with His Spirit!” (ISAIAH 48:16).

“Why did I (Yahweh) find no one when I came? Why did no one answer when I called? Did you think that My arm was too short to redeem, and that I had no power to save?” (ISAIAH 50:2).

“On that day – when My people know My Holy Name – they will understand that it is I who says: ‘I AM HERE’… for they shall SEE YAHWEH ‘FACE TO FACE’!” (ISAIAH 52:6-8 ).

“All your sons will be taught by the Lord, and great will be your children’s peace.” (ISAIAH 54:13).

“I (Yahweh) was there, ready to be approached by a people who did not ask, ready to be found by them who did not seek Me. I said: ‘HERE I AM, HERE I AM’, to a nation that did not invoke My Name. All day Istretched out My hands to a rebellious people who pursued evil , and choose their own ways; a people who provoked Me continually to My face.” (ISAIAH 65:1-3).

“I (God) will give you (Spiritual) Shepherds after My own heart, who will feed you with Knowledge and Understanding.” (JER.3:15).

“For I am God, no ordinary man, but the Holy One in your midst.” (HOSEA 11:9).

“I (Yahweh) dwell among the children of Israel, and am their God.” (EXOD.29:45).

“I (Yahweh) will walk among you; I will be your God, and you shall be My people.” (LEV.26:12).

“They (initiated disciples) know that Yahweh is among His people, for Yahweh is seen face to face.” (NUM.14:14).

“When Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing before him with a sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked: ‘Are you with us, or our enemies?’ And he answered: ‘No, I am theLeader (Commander) of Yahweh’s host, and now I have come.’ Joshua then bowed his face to the ground and worshipped him.” (JOSHUA 5:13-14).

“The Lord raised up a Saviour – Othniel, the son of Kenaz – for the children of Israel, in order to save them. The Spirit of Yahweh entered him, and he judged Israel… and Othniel died… then the Lord raised up another Saviour – Ehud, the son of Gera.” (JUDGES 3:9-15).

“I (Job) know that my Saviour lives, and to the very end He will rise up (i.e. resurrect / reincarnate) on Earth; and even if my skin is destroyed (by his disease), yet in my flesh I will see God – I myself will see Him with my own eyes.” (JOB 19:25-27).

“I am Yahweh – there is no other. I have not spoken in secret, in some dark place of the Earth. I did not speak vainly when I told the descendants of Jacob to seek Me.” (ISAIAH 45:18-19).

“I (God – the Spirit) continually send you My servants the Prophets, but you do not listen to Me, you pay no heed; you have grown stubborn and behave even worse than your ancestors.” (JER.7:25-26).

“I, Myself, will tend My flock, says Yahweh… They will learn that I, the Lord God, am with them.” (EZEK.34:15-30).

“You will know that I am present among Israel, and that I am Yahweh your God, and no one else.” (JOEL 2:27).

“Behold! The Lord comes forth from His Holy dwelling; He comes down to walk upon the heights of the Earth.” (MICAH 1:3).

“The King of Israel, Yahweh Himself, is in your midst.” (ZEPH.3:15).

“Sing and rejoice… for I, Yahweh, have come to dwell among you.” (ZECH.2:10).

“This is our God, no other can compare with Him. He discovered the fullness of Knowledge and revealed it to His servant Jacob, and to His beloved Israel (i.e. ‘initiates’ or ‘Seers’). This is why He appears on Earth and dwells among men.” (BARUCH 3:36-38 ).

“Look for the coming of your Shepherd; He will give you everlasting rest, for He who comes to fulfil the age is close at hand. Be ready to receive the rewards of the Kingdom… I bear witness publicly to my Saviour. It is He whom the Lord has appointed; receive Him and be joyful.” (2^ndESDRAS or 4^thEZRA 2:34-37).

“God saw their deeds – that they sought Him with their whole heart – so He sent them a ‘Teacher of Righteousness’ to guide them.” (Dead Sea Scrolls: ‘Damascus Rule’).

“He (God) revealed to them His Holy Spirit by the hand of His Anointed Ones (i.e. ‘Messiahs’ / ‘Christs’).” (Dead Sea Scrolls: ‘Damascus Rule’).

“From ancient times You (God) have appointed the ‘Prince of Light’ to come for our support; and all the sons of Righteousness are in His hand.” (Dead Sea Scrolls: ‘War Rule’).

“I am the ‘One Who Is’… If you know who I am you will not be uninitiated in My Wisdom.” (Sibylline Oracles 1:137-146).

“O blessed servants: those who the Master, at His coming, finds awake; for they have kept watching continually.” (Sibylline Oracles 2:179).

“I (God) send witnesses to them… but they will not listen, and they slay My witnesses and persecute those who seek the Truth.” (JUBILEES 1:12).

“Open your eyes and lift up your heads if you are able to recognise the Elect One!… From the beginning the Son of Man was hidden, and protected by the power of the Most High, and is revealed only to the elect.” (1^stENOCH 62:1-7).

by Prism1111 on Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:35 am

Bob I can truly see the words of direction that there are walking Masters or rather those within the fulness of the Father present here. I also believe that this is true to be the same. As we know the Gnosis experianced with the Father through Christ in us is the Foundation of the true teachings. As He also says there is nothing that we lack.
I also believe that there were Profits and Holy ones chosen of God to dwell with men, to teach, lead and comfort.
The text below you presemted which is true tells of the Kingdom of Heaven that the Christ will bring, that all men can recieve the rewards of, if They see it.

“Look for the coming of your Shepherd; He will give you everlasting rest, for He who comes to fulfil the age is close at hand. Be ready to receive the rewards of the Kingdom… I bear witness publicly to my Saviour. It is He whom the Lord has appointed; receive Him and be joyful.” (2^ndESDRAS or 4^thEZRA 2:34-37).

113 His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."
The Kingdom is here now, few see it.
without getting away from the issue we are in Bob, the tract below for me has always fulfilled what it said it would. Christ the master with every answer has always been there for me. whether I would be in Prison, on a desrt island, or deft dumb and blind. it would hold true that there is nothing we lack in ourselves to achieve the heights we seek.

M't:28:20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Of the father being within Men for proof of Prophets and such, to listen and learn from Your scriptures have shown that abundently, and is correct. But I saw no mention that the Kindgdom is not attainable if one seeks not a flesh born specific master. For the Collective Christ consciousness is the Master within the Father, for we are the word, untill it blazes, at which time the Consumation will commense.

Journey`s of diferant isights, but still the same word is fine.
Thank You Bob
Brother Thomas.......

by Heather on Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:36 pm

Admin wrote:Hi Heather

I have no idea what "New Age" is. I suspect it means different things to different people. The 'Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary' defines it thus:
connected with a way of life that rejects modern Western values and is based on spiritual ideas and beliefs.
So, according to this definition, I, too, am "new age".

I do not like labels - they tend to separate us, and give false impressions. So take no notice of what others say about you, or how they classify you, and simply discover and BE your(TRUE)SELF.

Peace, Love, & Understanding ~ Bob

Thanks Bob,
This is pretty much what i came up with after extensive pondering Smile

The truth is, i'm kinda new -agey. i've explored many paths and learned from all of them. I will always keep those lessons with me. Now that i've discovered te path (christian gnosticism) that mirrors my own beliefs, i'm going stick with it. I can see now how my ecclectic background could fall into the new age category. Ultimately, people will accept me or they will not, but i must stay true to myself and make sure i measure up to my own ideals. Thanks everyone for helping me work this one out cheers

Blessings, Heather

by Prism1111 on Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:11 pm

this difinition I got from wikapedia on the internet as a general basis, I learned siome things myself. It looks like what ever you wish to do is fine. With any structure You wish..... I think thought and reason should be alittle more intact than that with out depriving yourself anything. Thomas

Introduction:

The New Age Movement is in a class by itself. Unlike most formal religions, it has no holy text, central organization, membership, formal clergy, geographic center, dogma, creed, etc. They often use mutually exclusive definitions for some of their terms. The New Age is in fact a free-flowing spiritual movement; a network of believers and practitioners who share somewhat similar beliefs and practices, which they add on to whichever formal religion that they follow. Their book publishers take the place of a central organization; seminars, conventions, books and informal groups replace of sermons and religious services.
Quoting John Naisbitt:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
"In turbulent times, in times of great change, people head for the two extremes: fundamentalism and personal, spiritual experience...With no membership lists or even a coherent philosophy or dogma, it is difficult to define or measure the unorganized New Age movement. But in every major U.S. and European city, thousands who seek insight and personal growth cluster around a metaphysical bookstore, a spiritual teacher, or an education center." ₁</BLOCKQUOTE>
The New Age is definitely a heterogeneous movement of individuals; most graft some new age beliefs onto their regular religious affiliation. Recent surveys of US adults indicate that many Americans hold at least some new age beliefs:

8% believe in astrology as a method of foretelling the future

7% believe that crystals are a source of healing or energizing power

9% believe that Tarot Cards are a reliable base for life decisions

about 1 in 4 believe in a non-traditional concept of the nature of God which are often associated with New Age thinking:

	11% believe that God is "a state of higher consciousness that a person may reach"
	8% define God as "the total realization of personal, human potential"
	3% believe that each person is God.

The group of surveys cited above classify religious beliefs into 7 faith groups. ₂ Starting with the largest, they are: Cultural (Christmas & Easter) Christianity, Conventional Christianity, New Age Practitioner, Biblical (Fundamentalist, Evangelical) Christianity, Atheist/Agnostic, Other, and Jewish, A longitudinal study from 1991 to 1995 shows that New Agers represent a steady 20% of the population, and are consistently the third largest religious group. ₂

by tom on Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:49 pm

Hello Heather.

I am wary of a lot of New Age stuff including tarot cards because it seems like game playing and indulgence and isn't getting to the point of what we should be doing. Too much is accepted as truth when to me it looks like trivial games. I do not see anything alternative. Many of the New Agers look like losers but I don't want to be unkind in saying this. I liked what Ken Wilber said in an article about transformation v translation. I have not found that New Age people are interested in transformation.

by gnostic warrior on Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:00 pm

"know thy self". Understand where you are from, what you are from, and what you are to become if willing. Christ is within each and every one of us, but we tend to 'degrade the self'. Anything that is labeled, as Bob said labels are bad!, has an alterior motive in my book. Because of 'selfishness' we tend to want to be above others in many ways. Many will come and be reserved when in fact they are seeking power or wanting iniquity to stay in tact. The New Age is when Aquarius is the dominant house. I believe we are still in pices. Samuel An Wuer (sp) from latin disent and died not too long ago claimed to be the 'Aquarian Christ' as Yeshua was the 'Pices Christ'. Moses was of the age before..... To me, all things are available as gifts from our creator.. that is all lives we live and in all multiverses we incarnate in! There is no 'new age' there is no 'old age' there just IS!
Peace and Harmony through unconditional Love!

by DarkChylde on Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:53 pm

Well said, Warrior, well said. Cool

by Abraxas on Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:54 am

It is my belief that the New Age Movement is one of the more sinister concoctions of the Demiurge. It's a lazy-quick-fix-think-yourself-to-enlightenment-dogma that is suited for middle to upper middle class, Chardonnay swilling white people. It is a debasing of the rich traditions of the East and watering down of the Mystic heritages of the West. The worst thing about New Age is how it marginalizes the concept the suffering of our brothers and sisters around the world with their cotton candy theologies. It's all an illusion, even your suffering, they like to say! Just envision a better world and peace on earth and blah-blah-blah! That just spits in the face of what Buddha, Jesus and the other Apostles of Light were about. Does anyone think that the New Age message would work in Darfur, North Korea or refugee camps in Iraq?

Most of the world lives in abject poverty. Thousands of children die every day of just starvation. There are wars and rumors of wars. New Age would make us think that these people deserved it because of Karma or that (again) it's just an illusion. Let the sunshine in!

Having said that, there are exceptions. I like Eckhart Tolle a lot. There are New Agers who are soaked in compassion and understanding. But for the most part it's just yuppies waiting for a better day (or age) instead of accepting the terrible and wonderful awe that is the present. And its responsibility.

Miguel

by DarkChylde on Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:33 am

''But for the most part it's just yuppies waiting for a better day (or age) instead of accepting the terrible and wonderful awe that is the present...''

One thing about it, that is DEFINATELY not 'new' at all, actually the church has promoted just such ideas since it's beginning...Whether it is a better day or their exteemly selective 'heaven'...

What you said about Karma and new agers reminded me of the theological circles of the Catholic (among other's) church said about the Holocast and the Jews, how it was cuz they rejected Christ and brought the Holocast on themselves. Course, even the church was considered new agers at some point...

I don't consider new age all that, myself, we all live in a 'new age', but the ideas that I have heard form those dubbed new ager's is really the oldest of ideas used in a varity of mysticisms and spirituallities. Of course, every bunch has it's bad apples, and much of so-called 'new age' IS replete with the fruitloops, to be sure. The only thing that I DON"T tend to agree with new agers about is the fact that it seems a bit sterilized... But that is just me. I take reality as it comes, and damn few can do, wether they are new agers, old agers, or anything in between.... It is AS IS. Nothing more or less than that.

by Abraxas on Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:55 am

You're right that New Age is far from the only 'buy now, pay later' spirituality. You always have to watch out for promises (or threats) of an afterlife, a better incarnation, material or health benefits, and all that game show stuff. Basically, if it's too good to be true, it ain't. You gotta do your push ups and get some elbow grease if you want to truly commune with the Transcendental. There were a few individuals who were exempt of this throughout history, like Socrates or Sabbetai Zevi-- individuals who could go into a mystical trance at will. With most of us it's an arduous task with a lot of distractions.

I really don't know of any Catholics who ever said the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves. After all, tens of thousands of Catholics ended up in the ovens with the Jews, gays, gypsies, Freemasons and so on.

Your last point is right on the money, IMO. New Age is a sterilized reinvention of the theological wheel without any didactic or mythological content. I get more out of reading 'Jonathan Livingston Seagull' or watching 'The Matrix' than being exposed to Sylvia Browne, 'The Secret' or 'Conversations with God'. Why not go to the source? Why not read 'The Upanishads' instead of Gary Zukav?

Miguel

Gnostic vs. New age