RECOGNITION OF A MASTER

Admin wrote:

angelfire wrote:

Admin wrote:I often used to wonder why so many people who actually met Jesus (in the flesh - 2,000 years ago), and apparently saw or heard of the wondrous things he is said to have done, rejected him as a false teacher. Most Christians I have spoken to imagine that, if they had been there at that time, they would most certainly have recognized Jesus as the living Messiah. It is soooooo easy to talk and imagine with the advantage of hindsight, but things are not that obvious to eyewitnesses. How many people now would recognize such a Messiah, if God decided to send Him today? How many Christians today, would truly have recognized Jesus 2,000 years ago?

What are your opinions?

PLU

Hmm, lets see, if I was to see someone raising the dead, walking on water, curing the leper, restoring sight to the blind, turning water into wine, breaking up two fishes and five loaves to feed five thousand, I think I would be jumping up and down praising God. ('')

So I pressume that you believe in the inerrancy of scripture, i.e. you do not believe that perhaps such miracle stories could have been added later to impress and entice the carnal masses to Jesus message. It seems to contradict what Jesus said about an evil people wishing to see such miracles (signs and wonders), and His saying that He would not perform such things! Mt12.38

Do you think someone like Jesus would wish to 'purchase' disciples by doing such material things. The greatest miracle is the revelation of the SPIRIT of God ~ not worldliness (water into wine, feeding five thousand who were not even away from home or civilisation for very long, i.e. not starving, etc. etc.).

There have been many many such people performing 'magic' throughout history, right up to our own day. Some are reported (in India and other places) to have raised the dead etc. Even the Old Testament has people doing such things ~ not only Jesus.

So you think that you would have believed in Jesus because of His apparent miracles. You don't think that you might be as sceptical as you would be today about watching someone like David Blaine levitating, or some such feats done by so many others? Simon Magus was said to be able to fly and do many wonderful things. Would you believe this? Would you have followed this Simon?

Ask yourself why so very few actually believed in Jesus while He was alive (according to ACTS 1:15 about 120 believers just after His crucifixion). Not very many at this most momentous occassion!

It is very easy to say things with hindsight ~ Oh, yes, I would have believed in Him ~ but quite different at that time!

What do you think?

PLU

angelfire wrote:

Admin wrote:

angelfire wrote:

Admin wrote:I often used to wonder why so many people who actually met Jesus (in the flesh - 2,000 years ago), and apparently saw or heard of the wondrous things he is said to have done, rejected him as a false teacher. Most Christians I have spoken to imagine that, if they had been there at that time, they would most certainly have recognized Jesus as the living Messiah. It is soooooo easy to talk and imagine with the advantage of hindsight, but things are not that obvious to eyewitnesses. How many people now would recognize such a Messiah, if God decided to send Him today? How many Christians today, would truly have recognized Jesus 2,000 years ago?

What are your opinions?

PLU

Hmm, lets see, if I was to see someone raising the dead, walking on water, curing the leper, restoring sight to the blind, turning water into wine, breaking up two fishes and five loaves to feed five thousand, I think I would be jumping up and down praising God. ('')

So I pressume that you believe in the inerrancy of scripture, i.e. you do not believe that perhaps such miracle stories could have been added later to impress and entice the carnal masses to Jesus message. It seems to contradict what Jesus said about an evil people wishing to see such miracles (signs and wonders), and His saying that He would not perform such things! Mt12.38

Do you think someone like Jesus would wish to 'purchase' disciples by doing such material things. The greatest miracle is the revelation of the SPIRIT of God ~ not worldliness (water into wine, feeding five thousand who were not even away from home or civilisation for very long, i.e. not starving, etc. etc.).

There have been many many such people performing 'magic' throughout history, right up to our own day. Some are reported (in India and other places) to have raised the dead etc. Even the Old Testament has people doing such things ~ not only Jesus.

So you think that you would have believed in Jesus because of His apparent miracles. You don't think that you might be as sceptical as you would be today about watching someone like David Blaine levitating, or some such feats done by so many others? Simon Magus was said to be able to fly and do many wonderful things. Would you believe this? Would you have followed this Simon?

Ask yourself why so very few actually believed in Jesus while He was alive (according to ACTS 1:15 about 120 believers just after His crucifixion). Not very many at this most momentous occassion!

It is very easy to say things with hindsight ~ Oh, yes, I would have believed in Him ~ but quite different at that time!

What do you think?

PLU

1. You know as well as I do that my answer to the post has nothing to do with the inerrancy of the bible.

2. The bible verse you mentioned was spoken to the scribes and Pharisees, and was meant for them only. Read the proceeding 4 verses . To answer your question, yes I do believe he performed many miracles. For your edification, miracles can only be performed on the level of spirit so are spiritual not worldly.

3. The O.T. records of Elijah and Elisha raising the the dead tell us very much the same thing as the N.T. They were men of God ordained by God.

4.What has levitating and flying got to do with a righteous man healing the sick? Jesus said, his own would hear his voice and know him.

5. Acts 1:15 is speaking of 120 disciples, from among whom, 1 was to be chosen to replace Judas.

I would know him anywhere, anytime, and if I didnt, he has known me, since before the world was created.

Admin wrote:

angelfire wrote:

Admin wrote:I often used to wonder why so many people who actually met Jesus (in the flesh - 2,000 years ago), and apparently saw or heard of the wondrous things he is said to have done, rejected him as a false teacher. Most Christians I have spoken to imagine that, if they had been there at that time, they would most certainly have recognized Jesus as the living Messiah. It is soooooo easy to talk and imagine with the advantage of hindsight, but things are not that obvious to eyewitnesses. How many people now would recognize such a Messiah, if God decided to send Him today? How many Christians today, would truly have recognized Jesus 2,000 years ago?

What are your opinions?

PLU

Hmm, lets see, if I was to see someone raising the dead, walking on water, curing the leper, restoring sight to the blind, turning water into wine, breaking up two fishes and five loaves to feed five thousand, I think I would be jumping up and down praising God. ('')

So I pressume that you believe in the inerrancy of scripture, i.e. you do not believe that perhaps such miracle stories could have been added later to impress and entice the carnal masses to Jesus message. It seems to contradict what Jesus said about an evil people wishing to see such miracles (signs and wonders), and His saying that He would not perform such things!

Do you think someone like Jesus would wish to 'purchase' disciples by doing such material things. The greatest miracle is the revelation of the SPIRIT of God ~ not worldliness (water into wine, feeding five thousand who were not even away from home or civilisation for very long, i.e. not starving, etc. etc.).

There have been many many such people performing 'magic' throughout history, right up to our own day. Some are reported (in India and other places) to have raised the dead etc. Even the Old Testament has people doing such things ~ not only Jesus.

So you think that you would have believed in Jesus because of His apparent miracles. You don't think that you might be as sceptical as you would be today about watching someone like David Blaine levitating, or some such feats done by so many others? Simon Magus was said to be able to fly and do many wonderful things. Would you believe this? Would you have followed this Simon?

Ask yourself why so very few actually believed in Jesus while He was alive (according to ACTS 1:15 about 120 believers just after His crucifixion). Not very many at this most momentous occassion!

It is very easy to say things with hindsight ~ Oh, yes, I would have believed in Him ~ but quite different at that time!

What do you think?

PLU

Vivamis123 wrote:I try to visualize Moses coming down from the mountains now a days with the ten commandments and claiming God gave them to him....

BelzeBob wrote:How to recognize a master?

I think here we almost touch on reincarnation again. How is it that some feel the need for this inner development while to others it's not attractive at all and maybe even "a waste of time" or "ridiculous"?

How is it that some stay with the teacher while others leave?

I think it has to do with something accumulated inside, some kind of preparation.

AsIAm wrote:

BelzeBob wrote:How to recognize a master?

I think here we almost touch on reincarnation again. How is it that some feel the need for this inner development while to others it's not attractive at all and maybe even "a waste of time" or "ridiculous"?

How is it that some stay with the teacher while others leave?

I think it has to do with something accumulated inside, some kind of preparation.

I agree with BelzeBob. I don't know if I'd call it reincarnation (because I don't know much about that) but I think there's a natural process by which our teachers come to us and we recognize them. Whether preparation or instinct or "re-cognition" (as someone else had put it) -- yes, I think we will not miss our teacher(s) when they appear.

I don't know if I will have a human teacher. I had a dream once: I was in a swimming pool outside a large white house -- like a vacation house. All of the people around me were bouyant. They were completely relaxed, bobbing up and down in the water. I deciding to stop treading water, thinking I could do things the way they did. But I sank. I swam to the surface, and there next to me was an old, wise woman. She said, "Don't worry if you cannot float in the water like the others. There is your teacher, and you are going to learn how to fly." She pointed toward a balcony ledge where a beautiful white dove with a sky-blue breast sat looking down at me. I knew this was the Spirit. Since then, whenever I feel a yearning for a person to teach me, or a frustration that no human teacher has yet come, I am reminded of the dream, and I pray, and I am led.

The_Passerby wrote:You don't need a external teacher. Nothing Yeshua has ever said shows this to be a fact. In fact it was said and stressed that NO ONE, NONE OF HIS disciples call themselves Teachers or Masters because there is one Teacher and it is within you. We don't need birds of the sky that appear from the heights -- many can prevent your essence to grow.

The_Passerby wrote:
You don't need a external teacher. Nothing Yeshua has ever said shows this to be a fact. In fact it was said and stressed that NO ONE, NONE OF HIS disciples call themselves Teachers or Masters because there is one Teacher and it is within you. We don't need birds of the sky that appear from the heights -- many can prevent your essence to grow.

I believe there is one Teacher -- within me and around me and above me. This teacher might show up in human form if that is best for my understanding of the lessons. And in case I was not clear, the dove in my dream was symbolic; I know we don't need birds of the sky. But some humans will learn best, at least initially, when they can speak face to face with their teacher; some are ready to learn in silence. Others are taught through the symbolism and metaphors of their dreams or of their everyday life or while meditating on Scriptures. One teacher, many ways of learning.

Admin wrote:

The_Passerby wrote:You don't need a external teacher. Nothing Yeshua has ever said shows this to be a fact. In fact it was said and stressed that NO ONE, NONE OF HIS disciples call themselves Teachers or Masters because there is one Teacher and it is within you. We don't need birds of the sky that appear from the heights -- many can prevent your essence to grow.

Hi PB

But wasn't Yehoshua himself an external, i.e. 'flesh and blood' living human teacher 2,000 years ago? Just by you quoting his words as authoritative shows that you must actually accept him as being a worthy (external) teacher.

Also, what about Melchizedek, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Isaiah, Nanak, Mohammed, etc. - were they ALL unnecessary and/or false TEACHERS? Were they not sent by God for some purpose? Why do you think they came?

Here are some possibilities stated in other religions:

From Hindu Scriptures:

“Arise! Wake up! Learn Wisdom at the Master’s feet.” (Katha Upanisad 1:3:14).

“Though the Supreme One lives in this world and maintains it, the ignorant do not see Him.” (Brihadaranyaka Upanisad 1:4:7).

“This Supreme Knowledge is revealed through the unbroken succession of true Masters.” (Bhagavad Gita 4:2).

“Whenever and wherever there is a decline in Righteousness, I (God), Myself, descend to Earth. To deliver the pious and to destroy the evil, and to re-establish true Religion, I manifest Myself again and again.” (Bhagavad Gita 4:7-8 ).

“Seek the true Master and approach Him humbly with service. He can reveal Divine Knowledge to you for He is a Seer of Truth.” (Bhagavad Gita 4:34).

“The foolish mock at My (God’s) descending as a human being. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over everything.” (Bhagavad Gita 9:11).

From Buddhist Scriptures:

“As long as a Tathagata arises not, an Arahant, a Buddha Supreme, there is no shining forth of the Great Light, of the Great Radiance, but only gross darkness, the darkness of bewilderment prevails; thus there is no revelation, no [true] teaching… and no making plain of the ‘Four’ Noble Truths. But as soon as a Tathagata arises, then all these things take place.” (Samyutta-Nikaya, v. 442).

“It is for the purpose of revealing the gnosis of Enlightenment that the Saviour has arisen in the world… Remember that the Guides of the world unfailingly speak the Truth: ‘There is only one single vehicle, and a second there is not’… The Tathagata is endowed with Gnosis… He continually appears in the material world… His purpose is to set free from greed, hatred, and delusion the beings in the world who are blinded by the darkness and obscuring membrane of ignorance.” (Vasubandhu: ‘Saddharmapundarika’).

“May the Spiritual Teachers of the Inspired Line lead us.” (Bardol Thodol – The Tibetan Book of the Dead).

From Mandaean Scriptures:

“Year after year, generation after generation I (the Lord) have been in the world, but they did not know Me, they did not know that I dwell in their world.” (Ginza 153).

From Muslim Scriptures:

“Children of Adam, when [Genuine] Apostles of your own come to proclaim to you My (God’s) revelations, those that take heed and mend their ways will have nothing to fear; but those who deny and scorn Our revelations shall be the heirs of hell.” (Koran 7:35-36).

“He (God) sends forth His Apostle with guidance and the true faith to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters may dislike it.” (Koran 9:33).

“Lost are those who disbelieve in meeting with God… For a Messenger is sent to every nation.” (Koran 10:46-48 ).

“They marvel that a Prophet of their own should arise amongst them. ‘He is a cunning enchanter’, say the unbelievers.” (Koran 38:5).

“They marvel that a Prophet of their own should arise amongst them. The unbelievers say: ‘This is indeed a strange thing’.” (Koran 50:2).

“The Prophet who warns you now is of the succession of the Prophets of old.” (Koran 53:56).

“He (God) sends forth Apostles among the nations to reveal to them His Mysteries, which purify them, and give them Wisdom and Knowledge.” (Koran 62:2).

“When an Apostle brings them proof, they say: ‘Shall a mere mortal be our guide?’ They deny the Truth and give no heed… Believe, then, in God, His Apostle, and His Light.” (Koran 64:6-8 ).

From Sikh Scriptures:

“The Guru of gurus is one, though He appears many times in various forms (i.e. incarnations).” (Rag Asa).

“Only by the Guru’s teaching is the Divine Light manifested.” (Rag Dhanasri).

“By meeting the Guru happiness is achieved and all sinful desires are quenched in His virtue.” (Sri Rag).

“In each succeeding age the Guru is God.” (Rag Ramkali).

“Without the Guru this principle is not discovered: that the Unseen One dwells in the soul. When the true Guru is met, the Name and Word are implanted in the soul.” (Rag Maru).