IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

The following passage clearly indicates the necessity of a contemporary 'physical' living Spiritual Teacher / Apostle, for the actual transmition of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 8:15-19 "When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had merely been baptized into the ['exoteric'] name of the Lord: 'Jesus'.* Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the Apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit'."
* Just as Christians are today!

Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding

Hello Admin!

"Does this not clearly prove (to those who
believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary,
living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to
receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?"

Let me begin with the last. Laying on of hands? I don't think so. I don't think that's necessary at all and I don't understand how that could work.

Let me state my understanding of the subject. What we need is accurate information about "the way to Heaven". And this information has to be very precise and complete. What we call a "Master" or a "Conscious Being? is such a man that possesses this information, this knowledge. Not just in the theoretical sense, but he knows this knowledge to be true. It is not only his knowledge, but his consciousness, his being and his understanding. And he is able to present the knowledge with his being. That is, he can demonstrate the knowledge and turn it into practice. And he has very great ability to be a very good guide for each of his students as he can see what each one needs. He is also so determined and disciplined that he is able to always practice what he preaches. Be strong, be responsible and never give up on his work.

Still, a former student of his or someone who has learnt the teaching in a complete and unaltered form can also be a good guide for a seeker of the truth. Provided that he lets the teaching be intact and not add or subtract anything to/from it.

So much also depends upon how intelligent the student is. And how much effort he makes. It doesn't help if Jesus Christ is your teacher if you're a lazy slob. It's your work and nobody can do it for you.

In essence, the teacher does two things:

1. Present the truth, the knowledge.
2. Make the conditions for the student's development as good as possible.

(I don't think laying on of hands make any difference the one way or the other. Other than for the purpose of healing. But I don't think that's what you meant.)

greetings,
BB

BelzeBob wrote:Hello Admin!

"Does this not clearly prove (to those who
believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary,
living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to
receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?"

Let me begin with the last. Laying on of hands? I don't think so. I don't think that's necessary at all and I don't understand how that could work.

Let me state my understanding of the subject. What we need is accurate information about "the way to Heaven". And this information has to be very precise and complete. What we call a "Master" or a "Conscious Being? is such a man that possesses this information, this knowledge. Not just in the theoretical sense, but he knows this knowledge to be true. It is not only his knowledge, but his consciousness, his being and his understanding. And he is able to present the knowledge with his being. That is, he can demonstrate the knowledge and turn it into practice. And he has very great ability to be a very good guide for each of his students as he can see what each one needs. He is also so determined and disciplined that he is able to always practice what he preaches. Be strong, be responsible and never give up on his work.

Still, a former student of his or someone who has learnt the teaching in a complete and unaltered form can also be a good guide for a seeker of the truth. Provided that he lets the teaching be intact and not add or subtract anything to/from it.

So much also depends upon how intelligent the student is. And how much effort he makes. It doesn't help if Jesus Christ is your teacher if you're a lazy slob. It's your work and nobody can do it for you.

So you mean that intelligence is a requirement for Spiritual Enlightenment (do you use the term Spiritual?). What about those who are not so 'bright'? I agree that work is a very important part of the process. I think that is why religion is so popular ~ no real work required.

In essence, the teacher does two things:

1. Present the truth, the knowledge.
2. Make the conditions for the student's development as good as possible.

(I don't think laying on of hands make any difference the one way or the other. Other than for the purpose of healing. But I don't think that's what you meant.)

greetings,
BB

What I mean by the "laying on of hands" is that there are (in my Master's teaching) certain techniques to be used in meditation which require practical "one on one" demonstration.

PLU

Dear Admin

So you mean that intelligence is a requirement for Spiritual Enlightenment (do you use the term Spiritual?). What about those who are not so 'bright'? I agree that work is a very important part of the process. I think that is why religion is so popular ~ no real work required.

(The term Spiritual Enlightenment works fine for me. Or simply "enlightenment", "becoming conscious", "becoming a Conscious Being" or "achieving Unity". There can be more ways to say this as well in the 4W tradition.)

There are different kinds of intelligence. In the 4W we speak less of intelligence and more of "development of functions" or development of being. In some people their thinking function is more developed, in others the feeling function f.ex. Or some may have a very active mind, but a lazy body. Or an active body, but a lazy mind. Or a dull emotional function. A strong being, but a weak knowledge. Or a strong knowledge, but a weak being. If we would add up all of a man's sides and different functions we would get a kind of "average" which we could then say is his level of intelligence.



But to simplify things; As we know, some people are very bright and some are not bright at all. Using ordinary language we can safely say that for someone who "isn't bright" this work is very difficult.

What I mean by the "laying on of hands" is that there are (in my Master's teaching) certain techniques to be used in meditation which require practical "one on one" demonstration.

PLU

OK. Absolutely. One-on-one demonstration/instruction is extremely important. But I don't think it has to be by the teacher in person. (Anyway, if it's a large school/group or many groups spread over a large geographical area - this will be close to impossible.) In the Fourth Way we say that everyone who knows more than yourself is your teacher. And when you begin to know more, you have to teach those that know less.

Oh oh. Bear with me. I'm not so good with the fonts and so on. But I'll try to learn :-)

BB

BelzeBob wrote:

Admin wrote:So you mean that intelligence is a requirement for Spiritual Enlightenment (do you use the term Spiritual?). What about those who are not so 'bright'? I agree that work is a very important part of the process. I think that is why religion is so popular ~ no real work required.

The term Spiritual Enlightenment works fine for me. Or simply "enlightenment", "becoming conscious", "becoming a Conscious Being" or "achieving Unity". There can be more ways to say this as well in the 4W tradition.

There are different kinds of intelligence. In the 4W we speak less of intelligence and more of "development of functions" or development of being. In some people their thinking function is more developed, in others the feeling function f.ex. Or some may have a very active mind, but a lazy body. Or an active body, but a lazy mind. Or a dull emotional function. A strong being, but a weak knowledge. Or a strong knowledge, but a weak being. If we would add up all of a man's sides and different functions we would get a kind of "average" which we could then say is his level of intelligence.

But to simplify things; As we know, some people are very bright and some are not bright at all. Using ordinary language we can safely say that for someone who "isn't bright" this work is very difficult.

What I was really trying to ascertain is if the 4W system (if that is the right term) requires intellectual study (e.g. books) and a reasonable education - at least to a good standard of literacy?

BelzeBob wrote:

Admin wrote:What I mean by the "laying on of hands" is that there are (in my Master's teaching) certain techniques to be used in meditation which require practical "one on one" demonstration.

OK. Absolutely. One-on-one demonstration/instruction is extremely important. But I don't think it has to be by the teacher in person. (Anyway, if it's a large school/group or many groups spread over a large geographical area - this will be close to impossible.) In the Fourth Way we say that everyone who knows more than yourself is your teacher. And when you begin to know more, you have to teach those that know less.

OK. This, I presume, is why Jesus chose 12 Apostles ~ as teachers / initiators. My Master also chooses 'special' helpers (i.e. initiators). Of course every disciple can help in teaching (or propagating), but in order to pass on the initiation, one must be authorized/chosen by the Master.

PLU

Hi Admin!

What I was really try to ascertain is if the 4W system (if that is the right term) requires intellectual study (e.g. books) and a reasonable education - at least to a good standard of literacy?

The 4W doesn't really need many books or much reading, but it is a very large system with very many sides to study. So there's a very big intellectual aspect to it. The system takes a very long time to learn, even just the theory.

But intellectual study also goes side by side with what is called development of Being - that's the "practical" side of man. His abilities, his discipline, capacity and so on. Not what he knows, but what he can do. The emotional aspect is also very important. And there a more developed emotional function makes up for a less developed intellect.

Is it good to in general be well-educated? Yes. At least a man has to grasp the concept of the teaching, how it differs from other teachings and so on. He must have some idea about what philosophy, science, religion, occultism and so on are about. Later on when he begins to study with other students he learns the "work language" which is very different from ordinary language in that every single word just has 1 specific meaning and no other. Knowing this language, it is possible for students to communicate their thoughts with very great precision. This language, like the system really re-defines everything a man has ever heard before. And in a way replaces the need for reading endlessly many books.

But in the 4W we spend very little time reading books, really.

OK. This, I presume, is why Jesus chose 12 Apostles ~ as teachers / initiators. My Master also chooses 'special' helpers (i.e. initiators). Of course every disciple can help in teaching (or propagating), but in order to pass on the initiation, one must be authorized/chosen by the Master.

Basically we agree here.

It'd be interesting for me if you could say something more about your Teacher (/Master) and "your" (/his) system. Does it have something to do with Gnosticism or Christianity? From the name of this forum I'd guess so...?

Greetings,
BB

BelzeBob wrote:It'd be interesting for me if you could say something more about your Teacher (/Master) and "your" (/his) system. Does it have something to do with Gnosticism or Christianity? From the name of this forum I'd guess so...?

Greetings,
BB

OK. My Masters teachings are very very simple. In fact it is not realy a "teaching" at all, it is a revelatory initiation into the Mysteries of the Spirit, i.e. Gnosis. There is nothing intellectual to learn ~ no books or other materials at all. In fact, before initiation, the preparation process requires one to 'unlearn' all the junk and indoctrination which has been crammed into one's mind, and become truly humble and open-minded. This is precisely how I understand the saying of Jesus about becoming like "little children" in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus is it available to all, the uneducated and illiterate included.

The results of this meditation may be read in my posts in the "MYSTIC EXPERIENCE" forum, i.e. http://gnosis.forumotion.com/the-mystic-experience-f6/

PLU

Admin

OK! I shall read :-)

BB

Admin wrote:The following passage clearly indicates the necessity of a contemporary 'physical' living Spiritual Teacher / Apostle, for the actual transmition of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 8:15-19 "When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had merely been baptized into the ['exoteric'] name of the Lord: 'Jesus'.* Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the Apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit'."
* Just as Christians are today!

Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding

Sorry Bob but I have to disagree with you. I am living proof that one does not need any outside help to realize the Divinity within.

What initiations are you talking about? I know of 6, with a possibility of 7. I would like to hear your take on them.

peace

angelfire wrote:

Admin wrote:The following passage clearly indicates the necessity of a contemporary 'physical' living Spiritual Teacher / Apostle, for the actual transmition of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 8:15-19 "When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had merely been baptized into the ['exoteric'] name of the Lord: 'Jesus'.* Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the Apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit'."
* Just as Christians are today!

Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding

Sorry Bob but I have to disagree with you. I am living proof that one does not need any outside help to realize the Divinity within.

What initiations are you talking about? I know of 6, with a possibility of 7. I would like to hear your take on them.

The initiation I am talking about reveals the Mystic 'NAME' (or Logos, Primordial Vibration), 'LIGHT', 'SOUND' (or 'Voice'), and 'SUSTENANCE' (or Manna, Spiritual Food).

These experiences are described in my posts in the "MYSTIC EXPERIENCE" forum, i.e. http://gnosis.forumotion.com/the-mystic-experience-f6/

PLU

Admin wrote:The following passage clearly indicates the necessity of a contemporary 'physical' living Spiritual Teacher / Apostle, for the actual transmition of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 8:15-19 "When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had merely been baptized into the ['exoteric'] name of the Lord: 'Jesus'.* Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the Apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit'."
* Just as Christians are today!

Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding

Yes I do have to lay Hands on them in order for them to SEE the Holy Image of God.

Yes I do have to teach them LIFE first.

Pila wrote:Yes I do have to lay Hands on them in order for them to SEE the Holy Image of God.

Yes I do have to teach them LIFE first.

Are you actually claiming to be a chosen and genuine Spiritual MASTER (i.e. like Yehoshua or Moses)?

PLU

Admin wrote:

angelfire wrote:

Sorry Bob but I have to disagree with you. I am living proof that one does not need any outside help to realize the Divinity within.

What initiations are you talking about? I know of 6, with a possibility of 7. I would like to hear your take on them.

PLU

Hello!

What do you mean?
BB

Admin wrote:

Pila wrote:Yes I do have to lay Hands on them in order for them to SEE the Holy Image of God.

Yes I do have to teach them LIFE first.

Are you actually claiming to be a chosen and genuine Spiritual MASTER (i.e. like Yehoshua or Moses)?

PLU

I AM the Son of God and That is all. Yehoshua and Moses did do what I AM doing and thats Great, they are great master Teachers and they are my Brothers, and they where not the only ones, Paul is a Good teacher. Too many great teachers two count. If you can See the Holy Image anytime you like, and can pass the Light two others by touch, then you are a brother too. It is a Great gift from God to give LIFE to God's children.

God is LIFE, or Life would not be.

Jesus did the will of God, He gave LIFE to God's children.

Giving LIFE to God's children is the Law of God. Only a son of God can give LIFE Everlasting.

Pila wrote:

Admin wrote:Are you actually claiming to be a chosen and genuine Spiritual MASTER (i.e. like Yehoshua or Moses)?

I AM the Son of God and That is all. Yehoshua and Moses did do what I AM doing and thats Great, they are great master Teachers and they are my Brothers, and they where not the only ones, Paul is a Good teacher. Too many great teachers two count. If you can See the Holy Image anytime you like, and can pass the Light two others by touch, then you are a brother too. It is a Great gift from God to give LIFE to God's children.

God is LIFE, or Life would not be.

Jesus did the will of God, He gave LIFE to God's children.

Giving LIFE to God's children is the Law of God. Only a son of God can give LIFE Everlasting.

May I ask you if you were initially taught / initiated by a Spiritual Master? and if so, what was your Master's name? or else how precisely did you achieve your position?

PLU