IS A CONTEMPORARY SPIRITUAL MASTER NECESSARY ?

Personally speaking it is not necessary in every circumstance. I say this because not everyone stands at the same development of another, we are all different in regards our movements back to the Primal Source, which lays in REST. Like a University of Experience we are measured to different capacities, all being related to our movements, successes, and triumpts through the laybirth of life which we develop under the encompassing Laws at this level, whether you call them archons or not, these are forces which work upon our mind and being, of which we must come to understand in order to utilize them to our own completion whether than being used by these Natural Laws mechanically. In this case since many are mechanical in their various bondages which are of this world some people are in need of external catalyst which or whom has the capacity to invoke them to draw within themselves, to guide them step by step into utlizing their own indwelling faculties of mind provide a further attuning to what is Divine within them, of which in that Authetic Self is the capacity to prove all things and learn the mysteries of the Inner Descent to know our Inner Ascent. So an external Guide will be a catalyst in helping you to cultivate yourself towards spiritual nourishment, helping you to stay afloat in consciousness and not sink back into your organic native element of mundaneness, which is depravity. But since what we are in this world is only a parcel out of a much bigger Cosmogony of Self, no it isn't necessary since all that you need abides within your individual Cosmogony. You don't need any external teachers whatsoever, since their is only one True Teacher and the degrees of such instructions exist as indwelling rungs which compose and constitute all that you are, of which you as the little self proceeded out of the reality of. Our True Source is within us and is Our Authentic Counterpart of Light (what people Call the Soul Self), you are to draw upon it and be nourished by its Light and Intellect as your one and only Teacher whose teachings you must reflect in all that you do, in order to manifest that Master in your vessel.

One should never rely on a external individual in regards a guru or etc, when you set others up as the source you draw from, you can become bound by their limitations, their opinions, and traditions which will/can invoke constructs upon the mind that will cling to their fragmented understanding (in other words become conditioned). All such things causes obstructions to growth becoming obstacles to connecting to the True Teacher in you. For if you are dependent on something outside of yourself which does not hold your life force and has not expressed you into this world, how much further are you away from the True Source of your being, which can set you up right towards Knowing Thy Self?

I, for one, never had a physical guide, at least not in this life. I on my own have experienced and came about things, then I eventually meant others whom were like me, whom could each individually affirm what I had experienced as having validity from their own encounters of the Indwelling realities of their Being, since they proved it within themselves, as I did.

Shalom

Ra.

The_Passerby wrote:Personally speaking it is not necessary in every circumstance. I say this because not everyone stands at the same development of another, we are all different in regards our movements back to the Primal Source, which lays in REST. Like a University of Experience we are measured to different capacities, all being related to our movements, successes, and triumpts through the laybirth of life which we develop under the encompassing Laws at this level, whether you call them archons or not, these are forces which work upon our mind and being, of which we must come to understand in order to utilize them to our own completion whether than being used by these Natural Laws mechanically. In this case since many are mechanical in their various bondages which are of this world some people are in need of external catalyst which or whom has the capacity to invoke them to draw within themselves, to guide them step by step into utlizing their own indwelling faculties of mind provide a further attuning to what is Divine within them, of which in that Authetic Self is the capacity to prove all things and learn the mysteries of the Inner Descent to know our Inner Ascent. So an external Guide will be a catalyst in helping you to cultivate yourself towards spiritual nourishment, helping you to stay afloat in consciousness and not sink back into your organic native element of mundaneness, which is depravity. But since what we are in this world is only a parcel out of a much bigger Cosmogony of Self, no it isn't necessary since all that you need abides within your individual Cosmogony. You don't need any external teachers whatsoever, since their is only one True Teacher and the degrees of such instructions exist as indwelling rungs which compose and constitute all that you are, of which you as the little self proceeded out of the reality of. Our True Source is within us and is Our Authentic Counterpart of Light (what people Call the Soul Self), you are to draw upon it and be nourished by its Light and Intellect as your one and only Teacher whose teachings you must reflect in all that you do, in order to manifest that Master in your vessel.

One should never rely on a external individual in regards a guru or etc, when you set others up as the source you draw from, you can become bound by their limitations, their opinions, and traditions which will/can invoke constructs upon the mind that will cling to their fragmented understanding (in other words become conditioned). All such things causes obstructions to growth becoming obstacles to connecting to the True Teacher in you. For if you are dependent on something outside of yourself which does not hold your life force and has not expressed you into this world, how much further are you away from the True Source of your being, which can set you up right towards Knowing Thy Self?

I, for one, never had a physical guide, at least not in this life. I on my own have experienced and came about things, then I eventually meant others whom were like me, whom could each individually affirm what I had experienced as having validity from their own encounters of the Indwelling realities of their Being, since they proved it within themselves, as I did.

Shalom

Ra.

Hi Passerby

I fully understand and appreciate what you have said. However, there is one question I would like to ask you. I will refer to one particular example - that of Yehoshua (although there are many more) - to demonstrate what I mean. My question is this, do you think Yehoshua came in a human body to act as a Teacher and Revealer / Initiator of Truth? and that He said that being initiated/baptized by Him was the only way (at that time) to enter the Spiritual Realm; and that He appointed 12 men ('Initiators'/'Apostles') to help Him with His task. Do you not think people in His day would should have followed Him as disciples? Or do you think He was telling them not to follow Him?

PLU

Admin wrote:

The_Passerby wrote:Personally speaking it is not necessary in every circumstance. I say this because not everyone stands at the same development of another, we are all different in regards our movements back to the Primal Source, which lays in REST. Like a University of Experience we are measured to different capacities, all being related to our movements, successes, and triumpts through the laybirth of life which we develop under the encompassing Laws at this level, whether you call them archons or not, these are forces which work upon our mind and being, of which we must come to understand in order to utilize them to our own completion whether than being used by these Natural Laws mechanically. In this case since many are mechanical in their various bondages which are of this world some people are in need of external catalyst which or whom has the capacity to invoke them to draw within themselves, to guide them step by step into utlizing their own indwelling faculties of mind provide a further attuning to what is Divine within them, of which in that Authetic Self is the capacity to prove all things and learn the mysteries of the Inner Descent to know our Inner Ascent. So an external Guide will be a catalyst in helping you to cultivate yourself towards spiritual nourishment, helping you to stay afloat in consciousness and not sink back into your organic native element of mundaneness, which is depravity. But since what we are in this world is only a parcel out of a much bigger Cosmogony of Self, no it isn't necessary since all that you need abides within your individual Cosmogony. You don't need any external teachers whatsoever, since their is only one True Teacher and the degrees of such instructions exist as indwelling rungs which compose and constitute all that you are, of which you as the little self proceeded out of the reality of. Our True Source is within us and is Our Authentic Counterpart of Light (what people Call the Soul Self), you are to draw upon it and be nourished by its Light and Intellect as your one and only Teacher whose teachings you must reflect in all that you do, in order to manifest that Master in your vessel.

One should never rely on a external individual in regards a guru or etc, when you set others up as the source you draw from, you can become bound by their limitations, their opinions, and traditions which will/can invoke constructs upon the mind that will cling to their fragmented understanding (in other words become conditioned). All such things causes obstructions to growth becoming obstacles to connecting to the True Teacher in you. For if you are dependent on something outside of yourself which does not hold your life force and has not expressed you into this world, how much further are you away from the True Source of your being, which can set you up right towards Knowing Thy Self?

I, for one, never had a physical guide, at least not in this life. I on my own have experienced and came about things, then I eventually meant others whom were like me, whom could each individually affirm what I had experienced as having validity from their own encounters of the Indwelling realities of their Being, since they proved it within themselves, as I did.

Shalom

Ra.

Hi Passerby

I fully understand and appreciate what you have said. However, there is one question I would like to ask you. I will refer to one particular example - that of Yehoshua (although there are many more) - to demonstrate what I mean. My question is this, do you think Yehoshua came in a human body to act as a Teacher and Revealer / Initiator of Truth? and that He said that being initiated/baptized by Him was the only way (at that time) to enter the Spiritual Realm; and that He appointed 12 men ('Initiators'/'Apostles') to help Him with His task. Do you not think people in His day would should have followed Him as disciples? Or do you think He was telling them not to follow Him?

PLU

It would be sort of difficult to ask me that question, since I hold the scriptures as esoteric allegories, metaphoric allusions of our tripartite (3 fold nature). While I do believe there was a historical Yeshua/Jesus however beyond that scriptures have a very thin measure of history that it builds upon, much of it isn't historical and is meant to be applied with that allusive Key of/to Knowledge/Gnosis. I doubt that Yeshua had literally 12 disciples, that is a numerical pattern that is a allusion of a esoteric reality of mind, which is also patterned on many levels. Now, in the stories which are presented, I would say that one can't Truly know the Truth unless to manifest Yeshua within him, and learn through the condition that Yeshua reflects in scripture.

Historically I believe he had disciples, and a disciple is a student, but it wasn't like that as far as I am seeing. I guide is sometimes necessary, but I doubt any Gnostic individual would call themselves Teacher,"Do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers (Matthew 23:8-12) But truly speaking, from a internal manner reflective of our realities of mind, "Yeshua" must bring the 12 together upon the mount and initiate them into the glories of the Light unified.

But again, I don't believe it is necessary to have a external Indivdual all the time, because of what we have indwelling within us, we have our own Teacher, or Educator of Light, which is why we have the power to prove all things apart from anyone since our True Authentic Self is alive and dwelling in Intellect and knowledge which far exceeds anyone in this world. We could not be "passerbys" if this was not case, since a passer by is sufficient unto her/himself apart from anyone else or any place else. In my experience, it is proven since I didn't read a single scripture or interact with a spiritual guide outside of what abides within me pretty much until 21, but even after that it wasn't till 23 that I began to interact with others who knew what I was saying, thus helping me to bring about a more coherent explanation.

Hi Passerby,

The_Passerby wrote:
Historically I believe he had disciples, and a disciple is a student, but it wasn't like that as far as I am seeing. I guide is sometimes necessary, but I doubt any Gnostic individual would call themselves Teacher,"Do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers (Matthew 23:8-12) But truly speaking, from a internal manner reflective of our realities of mind, "Yeshua" must bring the 12 together upon the mount and initiate them into the glories of the Light unified.

But again, I don't believe it is necessary to have a external Indivdual all the time, because of what we have indwelling within us, we have our own Teacher, or Educator of Light, which is why we have the power to prove all things apart from anyone since our True Authentic Self is alive and dwelling in Intellect and knowledge which far exceeds anyone in this world. We could not be "passerbys" if this was not case, since a passer by is sufficient unto her/himself apart from anyone else or any place else. In my experience, it is proven since I didn't read a single scripture or interact with a spiritual guide outside of what abides within me pretty much until 21, but even after that it wasn't till 23 that I began to interact with others who knew what I was saying, thus helping me to bring about a more coherent explanation.

I agree that a contemporary master is not needed, and we should not become called master, teacher or anything like it. A guide who points one to seek God and to ask God for knowledge does not teach, because God will do the teaching. It is written that they shall be taught of God.

It is true that we need a living master, but Jesus has been raised from the realm of death and now lives. If we think that Jesus died and we are alive, we are using the carnal mind rather than our spiritual mind. The opposite is closer to the truth. The ancient gnostics knew he had long been nailed to the cross, but they called him the Living Christ, because they knew he was not dead but alive. And without the Living One, neither can we say that we are truly alive.

The prophet spoke of dry bones coming to life, and so it is, the dead truly will be raised and finally come to true life. What we sometimes think of life is often miserable, cruel and unhappy. It is not really life. True life is something far greater, and we should seek it.

Peace,
Mark

I believe one neads to have a living spiritual master if one wants to find the kingdom of God in the here and now. Past book knowledge can only take one so far. When one looks within and is spiritually ready the master will appear. The orthadox ways are fine for many. This is faith. However most following traditional religion usually have to wait until after this lifetime to have true contact with the Divine at a level of direct knowing which is beyond faith. Much of what I believe can be found in the book The path of the masters by Julian Johnson. My beliefs are similar to the sikk faith. I am an Eckist first. After that I am a unitarian and Gnostic christian. I say it this way because my faith is not easily described in words. I believe Gods spirit is alive and permeates every atom in existence. Sometimes one who is awake can hear its vibration and thus know one is always in Gods presence.

I always found it a bit hard to accept that we were left with writings from hundreds or thousands of years ago that have been translated multiple times, and could have been mistranslated by translators that lacked spiritual understanding of the deeper meanings concealed in parable and mere words.

The church even said that Satan is the ultimate deciever when I was there, and I then thought that if so, how do you know that the ignorant or intentionally misleading have not permeated your teachings, so I feel that personal experience is a must, and what High being would condemn the blind for not choosing the convenient route of jumping on the train of blind belief and ceasing to seek, it must be up to us to discern and sift the mass of information and apply methods for experience.

I feel that anyone who has walked the road and reached higher places within would be the best to direct the wandering seeker to the level that they have themselves attained. I also go off of an inner feeling that has served me decently, I said decently because it is possible that it can be intertwined with outer notions recieved, as all I know of methods has come from books, and some notions may be unconsciously attained and well up to conscious thought as if my own.

The notion of a Master living today would be great, and I do keep my eye out for outer aid in this journey groping through the dark. I have seen a Light that was bright within, yet it now is a glimmering light in the inner darkness, and I cannot say that I reached any attainment that I am conscious of from it. I must continue on and think maybe that was a sign I am heading the right way but am not there yet.

It would make more sense that a Master is always present among men, and that we all have the seed within waiting to be cultivated by those who sincerely seek out Truth and Self knowledge. I lay no claim to Knowing it so, because to do so would be to decieve my self.

The Master in the flesh today would definitly make me feel that we are not merely left with the scraps from the hounds of organized religion and needing to discover secret books that they missed in there burning of all that may let man rise from the fall. It would only be fair to humanity to have an equal chance at salvation from the depths of this consumeristic materialistica.

Most books I have read by many great humans seem to have a bend on their own personal compilation of information in their incarnation, so I try to find the correspondances in methods and decscriptions of, to find a midway stance coupled with fruitful pratical application.

Also I entertain the notion that maybe we can be taught or truths revealed on higher planes of existence while we shut out our physical manifestation and move with more subtle bodies where the Eye can see, and the eyes cannot.

Also another thing about a living master, we could spend lots of time searching the world for an individual and these days may never find this Master in the mass populus of the world, so I hope that we could find within, the means of reaching the Logos incarnated or his/her more subtle Self with our more subtle Self.

I could ramble on and on, but the fact is atleast consciously I do not know. So I will live right and go within consistantly with sincere devotion and knock on every door I come to, and maybe that will eventually yield that which I seek.

I remember a saying I will repeat.

I have good news and I have bad news, the bad news is that we have lost the key to the door of truth, the good news is that it was never locked.

It may be a bit altered through my memory, but I think I caught the main meaning of it.

Peace:)

Admin wrote:...Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

I have given this some thought and I think you may be right. I am not sure about the laying on of hands, but that the presence of a living spiritual master is necessary for some kind of transmission of the ability to see the truth. With exceptional Masters, they may have the power to convey some understanding through films or their written words but I can't think they could have quite the same impact.

Wish I could find one. Haven't yet. Maybe it almost takes a Master to recognise a Master, particularly in the southern U.S.

Deva wrote:

Admin wrote:...Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

Also, one must consider why so many great Spiritual Masters have incarnated on this Earth throughout history - men like Jesus, Siddhartha (a Buddha), Zoroaster, Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Isaiah, Mohammed, Nanak, and so many others. Indeed, it seems that a Spiritual Master is absoutely essential in order for one to receive initiation into the Mysteries.

What do you think?

I have given this some thought and I think you may be right. I am not sure about the laying on of hands, but that the presence of a living spiritual master is necessary for some kind of transmission of the ability to see the truth. With exceptional Masters, they may have the power to convey some understanding through films or their written words but I can't think they could have quite the same impact.

Wish I could find one. Haven't yet. Maybe it almost takes a Master to recognise a Master, particularly in the southern U.S.

All I can tell you is of my own experience - maybe it is not the same for all - but when I was earnestly seeking for the Truth, I was led to a Master. I look back at this and see everything coming together, and God leading me by the hand. It was not as though I could find the Master (I was not even consciously seeking one), but that I was led to the source. As the Scriptures all say: "seek and you will find" - or: God will reveal Himself to all who truly seek with an open mind ("like little children").

PLU ~ Bob

Prism1111 wrote:It has taken me awhile to try to understand were everyone is coming from and going to with this Concept, idea, following, belief or the point at which ones "seek to draw himself from" I guess is the best difinition ayyy?
This consept is foreign to me , although its not really. needing a Physical Body of another to seek their own enlightenment

It always surprises me that so many find the idea of a living (contemporary) human Spiritual Teacher so strange - or even unnecessary. Did not EVERY religion throughout history come into being from the teachings of a great Spiritual Master - a human being?

Does not every religion expect the return of the Master on Earth at some time?

I know that the Jews expect Elijah to return, the Buddhists await Buddha, and the Christians patiently await Yehoshua.

So what is so strange about His arrival in human form?

PLU ~ Bob

Prism1111 wrote:

Admin wrote:

Prism1111 wrote:It has taken me awhile to try to understand were everyone is coming from and going to with this Concept, idea, following, belief or the point at which ones "seek to draw himself from" I guess is the best difinition ayyy?
This consept is foreign to me , although its not really. needing a Physical Body of another to seek their own enlightenment

It always surprises me that so many find the idea of a living (contemporary) human Spiritual Teacher so strange - or even unnecessary. Did not EVERY religion throughout history come into being from the teachings of a great Spiritual Master - a human being?

Does not every religion expect the return of the Master on Earth at some time?

I know that the Jews expect Elijah to return, the Buddhists await Buddha, and the Christians patiently await Yehoshua.

So what is so strange about His arrival in human form?

PLU ~ Bob

You mentioned about every religion through history having a Spiritual Master. In the Truth of Self Gnosis backed by Christ’s scriptures, every religion is false as we talked about, so for me why, would their Masters be not False also in the regards of Noted Heads, some what like the Listed Saints of the RCC , again by Big religions(Governments).

Hi Tom,

Actually what I said was that EVERY religion throughout history came into being from the teachings of a great Spiritual Master - a human being? This is NOT the same as HAVING a 'living' Spiritual Master - unless you consider the Bishops and/or Priests to fulfill that role! Paul's "Christianity" (later known as 'orthodoxy') even rejected James as a true leader, and has never had a SPIRITUAL MASTER since!

Yes, the religions are false - but I am sure that you don't think that Yehoshua was false - and neither do I consider that Moses, or Elijah, or any of the great Prophets were false - and that goes for Buddha and Mohammed too.

Why do you think a long and continuous line of great Prophets came to Israel right up to the time of Yehoshua? Do you think that none have come since that time? Do you think God has left us high and dry for 2,000 years?

If we are told to become as little children - what is it that little children need most of all to cope?

NOT books! Books can be misunderstood, books can be corrupted, books can be burned.

Think and pray about it Tom. Who do you think were the most fortunate humans on Earth, if not those who actually met, recognized, and walked with the Great Prophets - DURING THEIR LIFETIMES ON EARTH!

Do you think that God would not give the very same opportunity to EVERYONE?

PLU ~ Bob

Actually those spiritual movements are never started by one individual -- but a group of souls. Yeshua's Disciples were not ignorant dumb fishermen, they were highly developed Beings, just as Yeshua. Yeshua would've never been able to achieve what he did, had it not been a group effort.

The_Passerby wrote:Actually those spiritual movements are never started by one individual -- but a group of souls. Yeshua's Disciples were not ignorant dumb fishermen, they were highly developed Beings, just as Yeshua. Yeshua would've never been able to achieve what he did, had it not been a group effort.

But was it not Saul/Paul who started what we now know as "Christianity"?

Yehoshua Himself, and his true (chosen) Apostles had nothing to do with starting a 'religion' - in fact we hardly know anything about them after their Master's death. Yehoshua Himself often condemns the ideas of hierarchical religion.

The religion that was finally propagated was formulated from Paul's teachings combined with popular myths woven together to gain worldly support - and finally, great power and wealth. The same old story of religion!

PLU ~ Bob

Admin wrote:
Does this not clearly prove (to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) that we all need a contemporary, living, 'flesh and blood', Spiritual Teacher / Master in order to receive, 'first-hand', the gift of the Holy Spirit - BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS?

What do you think?

Bob, I'm struggling with this issue today...

Pistis Sophia: The Second Book of Pistis Sophia: Chapter 97

"On this account I have said unto you aforetime: 'He who hath faith in a
prophet, will receive a prophet's reward, and he who hath faith in a righteous
[man] will receive a righteous [man's] reward,'--that is: Every one will go to
the region up to which he hath received mysteries. He who receiveth a lesser
mystery, will inherit the lesser mystery, and he who receiveth a higher mystery,
will inherit the higher regions. And every one will abide in his region in the
light of my kingdom, and every one will have power over the orders which are
below him, but he will not have the power to go to the orders which are above
him; but he will abide in the region of the Inheritance of the Light of my
kingdom, being in a great light immeasurable for the gods and all the
invisibles, and he will be in great joy and great jubilation.

Based on the passage above, your Master can only help you to the level he/she as received. So you must choose wisely.

There is also something in Pistis Sophia about helping others attain Gnosis and that you will be rewarded to the level they receive, but I can't find the passage....

For me, I find that my experience with others, in discussions like this one, often give me more insight than I ever received in my religious training. It is my current view, that we are all here to teach each other. That we must help each other. Synergy of thought can take you further than a single Master. Seeking multiple Masters gives you a better chance of higher reward.

I train dogs for fun and profit. I have trained under at least 6 different "OTCH - Obedience Trial Champion" a.k.a. Master trainers. I have learned something from each of them. The sum of what I have learned is greater than what I have learned from each individually. This is because I can combine the teachings and develop derivative ideas of my own.

I have often been told, mainly by my Hindu and Muslim friends, that they consider me a teacher. Not because I tell them anything, but in how I live my life and interact with others. They say they learn by watching me. Please don't take this as ego, as I would never call myself a Master, but I consider this a good point. A Master/Teacher does not have to be ordained, or even fully Gnostic. They must reflect, in their life, the qualities you desire in your life and the level you wish to attain in Gnosis. Finding one person that provides all of this, will be quite a challenge. At least it has been for me, so far...

This is one of the reasons I had a good feeling about this group. I lurked in a few other groups and saw there was often a "Master" in these groups. But I could not accept their view of Gnosticism. It looked too much like an Orthodox scam... The last thing I want is a Gnostic Evangelical!

I saw humility here. With this, I hope that I will find many Masters here to learn from.