WHY WAS PAUL MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN JESUS ?

Why was Paul so much more successful than Jesus in accumulating converts and converting people to what he called 'Christianity'? I would say the reason was primarily that Paul's Gospel taught that all one had to do to obtain Eternal Life and Salvation was merely 'believe' in and trust Jesus as the Lord, and 'believe' that His death was the final sacrifice which would cleanse all 'believers' forever of all their sins. Certainly a very 'nice' and 'smug' belief system, indeed - no real effort required on the part of the believer! Very suited to those who were too busy to devote themselves to Spirituality.

When one analyses this doctrine, the great appeal it offers to people who are merely 'lukewarm' about God/Truth (and are thus not really interested in dedicated discipleship), should become abundantly apparent.

Also, one would think that the Master - Jesus - Himself would be the most successful at teaching, but Jesus only ended up with, perhaps, a few hundred or so disciples (in Acts 1:15 it mentions only about 120 disciples after the crucifixion). Paul, however, must have converted thousands, and we know he started many churches throughout Asia-Minor - all the way to Rome. He even collected money from his own communities to help the poor of the church in Jerusalem. Then just look how this new religion, as taught by Paul, simply 'took off' - an amazing success story which could never have been achieved by Jesus and His genuine revelations of Truth - which require one's total dedication - N.B. what Jesus told the 'rich young man' Mark 10:17-24. If Paul had taught such things, no doubt he wouldn't have had such a successful career, either!

What do you think?

Peace, Love, & Understanding

Hi Bob,

While I appreciate all that is said and speculated about Paul, I personally find more gnosis within his writings than is contained within any of the other books of the NT. You have asked what my thoughts are so here goes....

I do feel that Paul has been used in a very covert and perverted way in which to make the organized, homogenized church much of what it is...but then, it is what it is.

I don't know if that makes Paul bad or mad. I just think that we are all on such personally personal journeys that some speak to some and others speak to others and the Spirit allows us to find the real??? But I don't claim to know those things. I can only share my experience. I guess that for me, Paul has been inspirational in many ways and the whole thing would have been rather bland and blah without some of his writings.

Personally, I know that the Bible has become corrupted. It wasn't all intentional...and then again some of it was very intentional. The organization had to change some things to get everyone on the same page.

It is my belief that (as with many other spiritual writings) there contains within the pages, both pure gold and fools gold. It is our responsibility to be miners and find what is real and what is not. I don't think that the lack of truth is the problem, but the lack of individuals willingness to delve deep within and SEEK OR FIND the truth. People tend to be extremely lazy or very comfortable within their indoctrination...and they want someone to "tell them the truth" when in fact we are all called to find the truth.

Peace.
Stacey

stacey wrote:Hi Bob,

While I appreciate all that is said and speculated about Paul, I personally find more gnosis within his writings than is contained within any of the other books of the NT. You have asked what my thoughts are so here goes....

I do feel that Paul has been used in a very covert and perverted way in which to make the organized, homogenized church much of what it is...but then, it is what it is.

I don't know if that makes Paul bad or mad. I just think that we are all on such personally personal journeys that some speak to some and others speak to others and the Spirit allows us to find the real??? But I don't claim to know those things. I can only share my experience. I guess that for me, Paul has been inspirational in many ways and the whole thing would have been rather bland and blah without some of his writings.

Personally, I know that the Bible has become corrupted. It wasn't all intentional...and then again some of it was very intentional. The organization had to change some things to get everyone on the same page.

It is my belief that (as with many other spiritual writings) there contains within the pages, both pure gold and fools gold. It is our responsibility to be miners and find what is real and what is not. I don't think that the lack of truth is the problem, but the lack of individuals willingness to delve deep within and SEEK OR FIND the truth. People tend to be extremely lazy or very comfortable within their indoctrination...and they want someone to "tell them the truth" when in fact we are all called to find the truth.

Hi Stacey

I agree totally that it does not matter about other peoples experiences - it is our own personal experience which is ALL important. However, when someone might be leading others astray, I believe it is our duty to investigate and help bring out the truth.

I personally do not gain my Spiritual knowledge or experiences from books or any historic personalities, but for many 'religious' people, such is all they know (i.e. 'believe')!

Have you read my post entitled "Paul ~ false apostle and first 'Christian'"? I have explained there in some detail my opinions of Paul, his possible mental illness, and what I consider to be his erroneous teachings.

Of course nothing can now be proved one way or the other, but I think it is worth investigating. Maybe the things I point out about Paul were not written by him. Maybe they were written by a later corrupt hand of orthodoxy? Either way, I believe there is something very wrong with his epistles as they now stand.

Peace, Love, & Understanding

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your time and yes I have read the post you refer to. As with the majority of your posts, I find it facinating and quite thought provoking.

My post was merely the beginning of dialog in response to, " what do you think?". Kind of a where I stand with the idea of Paul and my personal experience with his writings. I guess that it is the proverbial don't throw the baby away with the bath water.

My personal experience is that it makes perfect sense that Jesus would have only had a few convets...because while the majority of people you encounter claim to want to know the truth...when presented with it few if any will actually take it. They are the same ones that pray for God's will and then when it happens they say it is of evil...I don't know Bob, I have just found that there is sometimes nothing stranger than people.

Most Sincerely,
Stacey

I personally think that one of the reasons that Paul had the following he had was due to the tendency towards judgement and inotlerance that he actually encouraged rather than discouraged, and unfortuantely this appealed to alot of people who were wanting (and still are) justification to judge and set themselves up over others. He was a Pharasee, and reguardless of what happened to him on the Road to Damascus (gnosis or not) he remained set in the idea that we are not all equal, and never was meant to be. WHile I believe that of all the 'apostles' Shaul (Paul's) work was the MOST altered, it was because he ascribed to that base docterine to begin with.
Remember, he was a merciless murderer before his 'conversion', and I think he simply became another kind of fanatic, but never the spiritual leader he saw himself as being, or that he was made out to be.

Just my two cents! (Anybody got change for a nickel?)

stacey wrote:
While I appreciate all that is said and speculated about Paul, I personally find more gnosis within his writings than is contained within any of the other books of the NT. ...

It is my belief that (as with many other spiritual writings) there contains within the pages, both pure gold and fools gold. It is our responsibility to be miners and find what is real and what is not. I don't think that the lack of truth is the problem, but the lack of individuals willingness to delve deep within and SEEK OR FIND the truth.

Hi Stacey,

I too find some truth in Paul's writings and do see that He could find answers where they lacked. However, OVERALL, I am deeply suspicious of this man. I do not necessarily believe that he was constantly inspired by God, but more inspired by his own high opinion of himself and his greed for fame and power.

He was often hypocritical and contradicted himself. He gave a very confusing and confused message about salvation in Romans... etc, etc.

The BIGGEST problem that I see is that orthodox "Christians" quote him far more than they quote Jesus. This is serious and they should be called PAULians rather than CHRISTians.

Hi Chukuma

I would like to hear your comments on my thread "Paul ~ False Apostle and First Christian" - see here: http://gnosis.forumotion.com/christianity-f9/paul-false-apostle-first-christian-1-of-8-t28.htm

Again Paul is greatly misunderstood.

The only reason why "Paul" was supposeful was because Paul represented a lesser aspect and principle of Truth then Yeshua did, although he said and had many "Gnostic" points much of his writings are and were compromised, and were easily misconstrued. I have no idea why people would believe that the writings in the bible hasn't been tampered with.

Paul wrote epistles, some of which were never added into the canonical writings by the ban Bishops under constantine. There is an obvious Gnostic relative source that Paul draws from, especially if you read the first few chapters. You will notice that his epistles seem to lessen in singificance and knowledge as the chapter's pass.

Quite frankly it is simple, Paul didn't represent the depth of theWay, but he was more so an aspect of corruption, but a necessary one for those who could receive it. Since he wrote epistles and wasn't just merely recorded in scriptures, they were more easily compromised, since they weren't scriptures but straight foward letters which were the foundations of building up spiritual communities. Although they had their esoteric value, they were still letters which could be revamped, edited to make support agenda's of Pagan Rome, and etc in order to control the people and have them be maintained under subjugation to the rulers of this world; building upon a complete lack of understanding involving grace changing it to a self defeating system where you are a subject completely detached from the Monarchy you must worship; rather than you having a Higher indwelling Luminous Self which is apart of that Monarchy itself. Paul surely DID NOT endorse complacency, or rather his letters show this, “Put to death, therefore,
whatever belongs to your earthly nature” (Col 3:5 NIV), “…take captive every
thought to make it obedient to Christ” (2 Cor 10:5 NIV). For if ye live after the
flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the
body, ye shall live” (Rom 8:13
KJV) "But if, while we seek
to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore
Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I
destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." (Gal 2:17-18 KJV).

As well as, Therefore whoever eats
this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty
of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let
him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an
unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's
body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep"(1 Cor 11:27-30 NKJ). And, For it is impossible to
restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have
tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and
have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own
account and hold him up to contempt.. For if we sin deliberately after
receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for
sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume
the adversaries." (Heb 6:4-6;10:26-27
RSV).

Most don't understand that he spoke against the "pharisaic mindset" which reads esoteric things in a literal manner and seeks to be approved through their literal rituals and traditions, which brings about no inner change.

To much to discuss in detail. Would need 50 pages.

Nutshell:
Jesus - Mission. Accomplished.

Paul - Mission. Accomplished.

Different Missions. Different reasons. Different callings.

Get it!

BTW, Jesus was More successful, as he could look in the hearts and he had the BALLS to DRIVE away those that did not belong. Unlike those today that say they are "Christians" and are afraid to drive people away. God brought the sword, not a polite smile, but truth, and his Law. Fathers doctrines are different than man's.

The Pauline doctrine you quote above, is a common fallacy that is believed today by the masses that profess Christianity. They are not - for the mot part.

It does take more than just belief.

Chachynga