Re: PAUL ~ FALSE APOSTLE & FIRST 'CHRISTIAN' (#1 of 8)

by angelfire on Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:51 pm

Admin wrote:
angelfire wrote:
Admin wrote:
angelfire wrote:Character assassination is so opposed to the way of love, and has no place in the life of an aspiring initiate.

My Master Jesus Christ taught me that.

I am not exactly sure of what you mean. To criticize someone's writings, and try to account for errors in their teachings using evidence from their own sources is not, in my opinion, character assassination.

Paul was and is the central character in the Gentile church, and many of the dogmas of Christianity come from his letters. The NT contains far more of Paul's teachings than those of Jesus. If he was suffering from hallucinatory visions of Jesus, like so many in mental institutions today, or teaching false doctrines, this should be thoroughly investigated in an open manner - not merely swept under the carpet.

If you disagree with anything that has been said, please feel free to comment and put forward you views. This forum is concerned only with truth, not dogma, and I hope that we are all reasonable people who will listen to whatever is said with an open mind.

Please, therefore, tell us where you think we have erred in our discussion of Paul, and give us your reasons and evidence.

PLU

Angelfire
You are so intent on living the carnal life whilst all the time professing spiritual knowledge. Your post screams loudly what you are.

Bob
May I ask you exactly how you know how I live, and what I am? You talk about not criticizing others (who you call your brothers), yet you, yourself, do exactly what you condemn! Is this what you have learned from your experiences?

Angelfire
***I didnt say I know how you live, I said your posts scream what you are, meaning very carnal minded. I dont condemn you
the law does that very nicely. I reprove you, thats very different from condemning. My experiences taught me amongst other
things, how the law governs my life. *****

Angelfire
God is love but God is also law. When we hold a sword over the head of a brother, it can only fall on us, this is the law.

That garbage you wrote about Paul is now firmly embedded in your subconscious mind as being about YOU. Your mind knows only you, it knows no other. This is the LAW. Oh the law is so perfect, and not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled.

Bob
Only those who have no answers or sensible arguments will revert to crude and baseless insults. Show me with examples exactly where I am wrong in my assessment of Paul. I actually spent 10 years studying his letters, and consulting with psychologists and other professionals, before coming to write my conclusions. But what made me more certain than any other thing was my own Spiritual experiences which do not tie in with what is contained in many of Paul's writings.

Angelfire

The Law is an incontravertable fact, it insults no-one.

If I wanted to indulge in crude and baseless insults, I could use some of the words you called Paul.

Because you lack any kind of spiritual training, your spiritual knowledge is almost zero.

THERE IS NO PHYSICAL WORLD. THERE IS NO PHYSICAL WORLD. THERE IS NO PHYSICAL WORD. DID YOU GET THAT BOB.

INITIATION 1 AND 4 REVEAL THIS. dO YOU THINK THAT PERHAPS THAT"S WHY CHRIST SAID ''MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD''.

Bob
I would honestly say that there is a great deal of Truth in his writings, but it is mixed in with a great deal of error. Even someone like Hitler could no doubt talk a great deal of truth, mixed in with his evil ideas. He conned the vast majority of German people (e.g. many Christians) for many years.

Angelfire
Pauls job was not to teach truth, for truth cannot be taught, it can only be experienced. Pauls job and the Church's job was to tell the people that the kingdom of God is within them, and the way to reach it is thru holiness and aderence to spiritual law.

Angelfire
Judge not less ye yourself be judged, for the measure yea mete out to others is the measure meted out to you.

Bob
So, do you mean blindly accept whatever you are told?

Angelfire
I accept with love and gratitude everything that God wants to reveal to me.

Angelfire
Your Master should have taught you this.

Bob
My Master's teachings are of the Spirit ~ not blind acceptance of books, or authors of books.

PLU

Angelfire
Your Master's job was to ensure you were fully savvy with spiritual principles, and I dont mean just knowing them but also
also practising them. Imparting higher energies to those not fully conversant with law is both morally wrong and dangerous.

peace

by Admin on Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:11 am

Angelfire

There is no need for me to go into every point of your post, for it should be very clear to anyone who reads it exactly what blind hatred and venom you harbour within yourself. I see no PLU (Peace, Love, or Understanding) there.

Instead of giving reasonable arguments for disagreeing with my portrait of Paul, all you do is attack me personally. This is proof enough that you have no real arguments to use, and that you blindly follow Paul's writings out of pure indoctrination.

You are entitled to your views, but in future please do not make any personal attacks on any members of this forum ~ just give whatever evidence, personal experiences, reasoned comments, and remarks you wish to provide.

My comments on Paul were all reasoned, and supported by evidence ~ not blind assertions!

Thank you for your co-operation

PLU Very Happy

by BelzeBob on Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:18 pm

Yes Admin

I agree.

"Keep it impersonal"! I don't mean "un-emotional", emotional is good, but we are interested in issues, not persons.

BB

by Admin on Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:18 am

angelfire wrote:Character assassination is so opposed to the way of love, and has no place in the life of an aspiring initiate.

My Master Jesus Christ taught me that.

Here is another clear proof that Paul was a liar: http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/paul_a_liar.htm

and here are some more interesting proofs: http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm & http://www.yahuah.org/Paul%20Websites.html

PLU Very Happy

by The_Passerby on Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:29 pm

For a broader perspective of Paul as a Gnostic I must
explain a few things. First off Paul is very misunderstood and it must be known
that many of his epistles were corrupted, having mean spoiled by the hands of
others who either edited or wrote in his name entirely and the epistles show
signs that many may have written under the name of Paul. Another reality is the
fact that the scriptures are an esoteric allegory, a metaphoric allusion that
relates the cosmology of mind and being within the text, but since all things
are holographic, it can also be analogous to what we are patterned after. So
the Law that Paul is making reference to is the WHOLE of the Torah, which IS an
esoteric allegory that many applied literally.

Paul was completely CORRECT in his assertion that the
“Letter killeth but the spirit giveth life.” What MUST be understood is that
Paul was not against the “Jews,” as “Jews” in scriptures refers to a mindset
that is “external” or “outwards.” What is being conveyed in this allegory is
the reality that the Jew mindset is that which seeks to be justified in ritual
and tradition, they take the scriptures and apply them externally since that
level of seeker does not possess the capacity of mind to perceive and turn the
scriptures within themselves, but instead seeking to apply things in the only
manner they can perceive which is “physically.” This is done or is expressed in
this way because of what they lack at that level, "How terrible it will be for you experts in
religious law! For you hide the key to knowledge from the people. You don't
enter the Kingdom yourselves, and you prevent others from entering"
(Luke 11:52). You can see this in the major religions of this
world, the people are of a “jew” mindset, or a pharisaic mindset where they
subject spiritual things to carnality in search of feeling the empty void,
which compels them to seek to act out that which they don’t comprehend within
themselves.

The oracles, the concepts, the law becomes a vessel for
their conscience to be relieved but at the cost of their own Inner Works which
brings about transformation and expansion of consciousness, and the ability
which makes you able to draw upon your True Self and receive the capacity to
gain further depths of Truth, Education, and gnosis. The letter kills because
when you are subjecting allegorical things necessary for preparation to enter
the inner kingdom you are completely negating your own inner growth which is
necessary to grow to heaven, projecting it outwards serves you nothing and it
is this God-Central actions towards a God of their own Conscience which is
death. These are of a natural mind, a mundane/physical consciousness. For
instance, it can be said that Paul only taught the common believer "Jesus
Christ and him crucified," saying at times they were babies to carnal or
of a natural mind to comprehend the spiritual things, so he taught only with
milk and not with meat (also not to forget his mention of those whom are
Psychic, in regards the "Greeks" who seek wisdom mainly of the
Empirical nature and the "jews" need physical signs). That right
there holds the
different classes of seeker; from Hylic, to Psychic, and to Pneumatic. From a
Soul Perspective these things are mindsets which are reflective of specific
faculties in mind and being. If you look at the Torah one example of why the
literal letter kills, is when animal sacrifice is mentioned, this is esoteric
and had nothing to do with killing literal animals, but bringing about the
condition of transformation within your own lower nature, sacrificing the
animal nature within yourself, thus rearing it up towards purity and higher
vibration. So it becomes clear why the letter kills, why you can’t gain
salvation through the literal letter. Paul’s doctrine was that if you walk in
the Way, live the consecrated spiritual life, then you will bring about that
condition which can manifest the kingdom.
There are three classifications of seekers; believers, initiates, and
disciples and this corresponds to our 3 fold tripartite nature; physical,
mental, and spiritual.

Paul was a necessary function in the laws, although he can
be said to be the first corrupter of the Way, he was Gnostic and often
misunderstood. Paul was necessary for those whom were still babies. There is a
lot of negativity about Paul here, but many Gnostics (Pneumatic Christians)
such as Valentinus held him in high regard.

When it comes to the acts, it is an allegory, an inner
narrative not a historical one. One of the first notable things that an
individual can perceive out of the acts story is the fact that Saul/Paul
correlates to the Saul of the Torah. Being the 2^nd Saul means that
symbolically he is the New Testament version of the Saul whom came before David
in regards to King of Israel (David, a Christ figure). When this is understood
the second thing that will be perceived is that the objective of both the Old
Testament and New Testament are equally the same and relate the same realities
of mind and being, but it’s just that one is written in the pattern after the
minds it was reaching in their time, the New Testament is not so esoteric and
savage. The death of Stephen was a growth in consciousness; Paul was referred
to as being in the way, i.e. forerunner, in the same way that Saul was a
forerunner of David. Stephen was stoned to
death by Saul and “Jews.” Which sometime afterwards Saul begins to walk in the
Way, which is the transformation from the “jew”/believer (the physical bondage)
and this is seen in the fact that when he was “Saul” he was blinded by Light
for “3” days which numerical value is throughout the whole bible referring to
transformation (Yeshua/Jesus 3 days within the “earth,” Johan 3 days in the
“belly” of the whale), who was at the house of Judas (whom betrayed Christ –
reference to the Jew mindset again), on a street that was named straight, at
which place he got baptized. That the name of the street was called straight
clearly refers to, to “Enter ye in at the strait gate”
(Matt 7:13 KJV); “Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths
straight” (Matt 3:3 KJV) After this he becomes named as “Paul –
the little one,’ chosen to be a Light to the Gentiles to teach them of the Way,
thus he is an disciple, spiritual. He teaches the Gentiles being the mindset of
those who praise and cleave to the powers (Archons) of this world.

So I don’t know. The scriptures are very allegorical to me
and scriptures are that which is in narrative/story form.,“…what
the Gnostics projected onto the screen… [in the form of a ] picture of the
universe was in reality a picture of their own minds. Its mythology is a
symbolic portrayal, almost a deliberate one, of the forces which operate in the
structuring and evolution of the human personality”. (G.R.S. Mead, Fragments of a
Faith Forgotten)

by DarkChylde on Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:54 am

Speaking as a Valentinian, it took me awhile to allow the idea that Shaul was not so bad. The mainstream Christians have so used and corrupted (as you said) his work it is hard to tell what was his to begin with. For instance, he tells the Galatians(?) that women shouldn't speak, but then creates churches and places women in charge. What is to be believed? It is all heresay if you don't expereince it for yourself anyway...

I can interprete Shaul's work Gnostically. After all, he was a Pharasee and worhiping YHWH (the demiurge) to begin with, and a moment of gnosis(?) knocked him from his animal and laid him out on the road to Damascus. He did try to lead people to the ONE, jew and gentile alike, but he made a fatal mistake, and sought to uphold the ancient avenue of power and control that had come from the very 'religion' he chose to change, to make better. But most gnostics (modern ones) do not claim Shaul (not neo-Valentianians, tho you are right the anicient Valentinians did, as Valentinus owed his aspostolic successsion to Shaul) but while I can interprete his work gnostically, and know of the relationship between him and Thecla (?), I still think he is not the most credible of sources for sprituality, anymore than Kepha (Peter) was.... Yet these were the founders of the church. Christ, I think, wanted to free us of the bondage of religion, priests and churches... But we just love our prisons so.......

by The_Passerby on Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:21 pm

DarkChylde wrote:Speaking as a Valentinian, it took me awhile to allow the idea that Shaul was not so bad. The mainstream Christians have so used and corrupted (as you said) his work it is hard to tell what was his to begin with. For instance, he tells the Galatians(?) that women shouldn't speak, but then creates churches and places women in charge. What is to be believed? It is all heresay if you don't expereince it for yourself anyway...

I can interprete Shaul's work Gnostically. After all, he was a Pharasee and worhiping YHWH (the demiurge) to begin with, and a moment of gnosis(?) knocked him from his animal and laid him out on the road to Damascus. He did try to lead people to the ONE, jew and gentile alike, but he made a fatal mistake, and sought to uphold the ancient avenue of power and control that had come from the very 'religion' he chose to change, to make better. But most gnostics (modern ones) do not claim Shaul (not neo-Valentianians, tho you are right the anicient Valentinians did, as Valentinus owed his aspostolic successsion to Shaul) but while I can interprete his work gnostically, and know of the relationship between him and Thecla (?), I still think he is not the most credible of sources for sprituality, anymore than Kepha (Peter) was.... Yet these were the founders of the church. Christ, I think, wanted to free us of the bondage of religion, priests and churches... But we just love our prisons so.......

I would never say that he is a "credible source," lol. My point is that he was Gnostic. Do I believe he in some ways corrupted theWay? Yes, but not to the capacity that people think, but he was necessary for those who could not receive the True depth of the esoteric nature of the Way. And to me, the scriptures are allegorical and don't truly reflect historical events, so what occurred in Acts has more to do with you, then the historical Paul, the same for the Gospels as well.

by DarkChylde on Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:11 pm

Do you know of the 'lost chapter of Acts,' also known as the Sonni manuscript (I THINK)? About Shaul meeting with the 'Druids'? I found a copy in my Restoration Scriptures, where YATI (Your Arms To Israel) has attempted to restore the scriptures to their original Aramaic...

He just takes a more judgemental stance (perhaps his pharisee training??) than Christ would have.... IMHO.

by BelzeBob on Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:39 pm

a small quote from my teacher here: "words of wisdom come from those who have realized their own nothingness, and not from those who think they are all."

by Prism1111 on Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:36 pm

Paul Is the Bigest wild card that is in this Criteria in writen words associated with belief in God that has ever been. There is so much documented proof that he was one of the greates minipultors there ever was, and/or was used to being Manipulated, In person and agenda.
If anyone could possible think that one person alone, acted alone to carry out exactly what his Epistles say, the amount of effect throughout History, and vitually no mass movement to disprove him, and litteraly forms the state of all traditional Churches now and has been for 1500 years, will I would say He out did Christ in spreading what seed was intended by it through time. One should ask a question as to why was there no repression of his Ministry from the Sadhedrian Council as was, to put Christ to death for speaking, and James the Just for his Leadership, and Stephen the Myrtar for He words. The Sanhedriam was the Big brother of that era and still is today in israel, calling the shots. His dealings are multilevels deep in keeping the true Story away from the masses so that all this was to transform.
Yes the souls in tranditional Churches are stuck in this whirlpool of egotistical pats on the back, as they hand out tracks to folks broascasting in the streets, to be born again, then return to the same building and praise each other in how great they are. I Know this sounds realy judgementive, But the only one I`m judgeing is myself Cause I`m taking about Me and what I was stuck in for awhile, and wish to do a real good Job at it.
Yes these souls are stuck there due to the 75% Government orientated, Male shovanistical, Religious laws of traditional Church doctrine Epistles of Paul.
Well with putting the Horse after the cart, now I will give some strait to the gut proof of these things I say.
All this actually started with me, From asking The Holy Spirit the answer to one Scripture in Revalations, Because I asked everyone from bishops to priest to ministers, and no one had a clue, and didn`t even know that was in there. LOL This was a Minister that went to Bible Collage said that. here it is;
Re:2:2: I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

The works, patience and labor as far as for the time His epistles where webed into mankind, and since then, are at first well understood to follow that scripture. His works will as Bob knows how He fixated vary much on the collection of money, even at a bad time in his own churches, so he says to give to Jerusalem to appeas our brotherhood with the Jews... No it was to Pay the Sanhedrian Council for the vast spreading of the manuscripts which they put together, Just as Catholic establishments today gather funds to pay Rome... Like they need it with all that Gold huh? Same thing differant era..
Now Bearing up by God to blasphemy of False liars. I will give but a few , but in actuality You could write volumes when reading his epistles to understand what he saying with knowing the truth that Christ gave us;

1Tm:1:20: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hay what about the forgiveness of sins, 70x7, The power to rid demons FROM men (as he claims He knows the Mysteries)
Not send them them TO HIM. Hay what side are you on dude. What about there is no greater love then giving up your life for a friend. Paul seems like hes starting the Judgement without us.... wooo..
This is one very direct Blasphemy to Gods word, there is no other way to read it.

Heres one the Ladies might enjoy;;;

1Tm:2:11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1Tm:2:12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1Tm:2:14: And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Tm:2:15: Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
well well....aren`t we an apostle without prejudice ...alittle NWO LOL
There are no supporting scriptures to any story like this what so ever.

Now Christ tells us and we know that with God, nothing will stop us.....Nothing

1Th:2:18: Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

2Co:12:7: And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure
His Epistles are webed with untruths half truths, Blasphemies, direct and indirect to lead into other areas or to avert attention to a false impression given. I truely urge everyone to read these things within the light of known Scriptures , as it will also help sharpen your inner eye to find what is true and what is not.

Now Them which say they are Apostles and are not is a fairly easy one to pick out of His writtings, You can easily compare them to any other scripture that is strong in the Spirit of truth, or at least a favorable story with Good lessons to put forward still adhearing to the light.
matthue, mark, even Luke, John, James all imediatly go into talking of the lord Jesus, are God Directly. None of them Talk about themselves, as Paul does in most every one of his Epistles, sometimes 10-12 tracts as they say, just about why he is an Apostle. No other Aposrle has ever called him an Apostle. in Peter 1&2 the story mentions Peter saying Paul our brother, But one; Peter1,2 is been 75% known to have neen wroten by the same writers as Pauls 2; Paul just got down discredeting Peter, and James I think it was. Its very radical thoughts put together with not much literary continuation for meaning. So for fact Paul along with Luke his disciple , together with a few more mentioned are they that call themselves an Apostle.. Without 2 or more witnesses.
Another funny thing was why Paul stated He had no need to see or talk to the 12 of Christ, Boy thats hard one huh? You would think it would be just the oposite as we all are doing here in the similar vision we all share.

After understanding Paul in a new light, The Spirit was just Preparing me for the the other question I had, to wear Paul was a big part in its understanding also. My other question was I wish to be shown the veil, the true veil, that one that will fool even the Elect, so as I could try to explain it, to other children of God who Might listen, and see. Some have.. some thinls I`m wacked LOL lol!

Now comes the twist and deeper understanding of the Logos. The Key is that there only has been one that was manifested in the flesh that did not Sin due to being of the ineffable. who was Christ, and although he took many other forms on earth from time to time, as did Elishia was John the Baptist. Jesus Life was a special efects of the Father to the highest degree of Visuals and works and teachings to be the best chance for the light of man to shine.
Everything else is under that. Some extremely worthy but never spotless. So as Disciple Bartholamue ask Christ to be shown the rullers, and was warned that he could not be able to stand, he still want to. The seed of God in us is able to know everything, from the depths of tartarus to the Hieghts of the father and everything inbetween. So knowing of the structure of the Arcons from Satan, is that truth? yesw of course it is, its all designed ny the Parents, the only thing Satan knows is How to destroy himself.. thats it LOL realy.
cause I said to God while reading some of Pauls Epistles, it sounds like He knows more of satan then of.. You LOL He smiled with me and said In=deed. Simplicity again if something seems to perfect in our mortal Realm it usually is, and should be checked and rechecked.
So by studing Paul in a vast amount of ways with all this said one will start to unfold the veil to which will fool even the Elect.

Wow I thought this would be longer.. Very Happy

Please find these things to your own discernment My dear friends, so that the seed will not blow. An as Christ says Beware the deep sleep in the final days.
May the Blessed Spirit be with you all in to each one Joy and truth of Direction.

This moment is bliss... Brother Thomas

by Unprofitable Servant on Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:03 am

Hi Bob,

While I do agree that Paul's and Jesus' teachings are very different, I would disagree about identifying it as a biological condition. I cannot explain the remarkable success of the Paulian teachings and practices (despite their great contradictions of those of the Master) other than by admitting they derive from one incredibly intelligent.

At times Paul and the Master seem to agree, but when applied, the two teachers lead their follower in completely different directions. Can the success of Paul's doctrine be the accidental result of a mentally challenged individual? I prefer the description "cunningly devised fable". Planned and devised with absolute precision, and unsurpassed in their power to lead one away from Truth.

Peace,
Mark

by Admin on Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:17 am

Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Hi Bob,

While I do agree that Paul's and Jesus' teachings are very different, I would disagree about identifying it as a biological condition. I cannot explain the remarkable success of the Paulian teachings and practices (despite their great contradictions of those of the Master) other than by admitting they derive from one incredibly intelligent.

At times Paul and the Master seem to agree, but when applied, the two teachers lead their follower in completely different directions. Can the success of Paul's doctrine be the accidental result of a mentally challenged individual? I prefer the description "cunningly devised fable". Planned and devised with absolute precision, and unsurpassed in their power to lead one away from Truth.

Peace,
Mark

Sounds like you are equating Paul to 'Satan', or saying that Paul was a dedicated follower of Satan.

Well, that is precisely what I am saying too ~ for my definition of 'satan' (the 'adversary' / 'enemy') IS one's unenlightened (carnal) MIND, i.e. that which Paul was following.

You will find the vast majority of people (practically everyone) follow their own mind, and those in mental institutions are merely more obsessed, overpowered, or deluded with their mind than most others.

Peace, Love, & Understanding ~ Bob Very Happy

by sopherim7 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:52 am

honeymoons over,i have alot too say on this, but iam gonna chew on it a bit do some reading in codex 3 of the n.h and get back to it on my day off, as iam sure i will have alot to say, with out even counting the mental health aspect of it. and i will address that, as that is where i have the biggest issues with your post.

by The_Passerby on Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:29 am

Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Hi Bob,

While I do agree that Paul's and Jesus' teachings are very different, I would disagree about identifying it as a biological condition. I cannot explain the remarkable success of the Paulian teachings and practices (despite their great contradictions of those of the Master) other than by admitting they derive from one incredibly intelligent.

At times Paul and the Master seem to agree, but when applied, the two teachers lead their follower in completely different directions. Can the success of Paul's doctrine be the accidental result of a mentally challenged individual? I prefer the description "cunningly devised fable". Planned and devised with absolute precision, and unsurpassed in their power to lead one away from Truth.

Peace,
Mark

Paul has gotten a very bad name. First off, His letters were changed around, but the greatest issue with them is the fact that many wrote under the name of Paul. Such a thing happened all of time, it was often seen as a aspect of respect for the individual. But many wrote in his name, some of those letters are more of a group effect then a sole individual, and the historical Paul had nothing to do with them. This isn't to say that some of the letters don't have good things, they really are good at points, but at others they are not.

With that said, I feel that Paul was enlightened TO A CAPACITY, enough to enter Heavenly level of being, that is he Entered the reality of his Higher Self as witnessed here, “...tell about the visions I've had, and revelations from the Lord. Fourteen years ago I was taken up to heaven for a visit. Don't ask me whether my body was there or just my spirit, for I don't know; only God can answer that. But anyway, there I was in paradise, and heard things so astounding that they are beyond a man's power to describe or put in words (and anyway I am not allowed to tell them to others)” (2 Cor 12:1-4 TLB). It is entirely IMPOSSIBLE for Paul not to have been Enlightened to a capacity if you consider some of the things that are attributed to him in these examples, “And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to babes in Christ” (1 Cor 3:1 NAS) --“I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able” (1 Cor 3:2 NAS). -- “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak”(Eph 6:18-20 KJV), however he was not at the level of Yeshua nor his disciples, nowhere near. To be honest Paul was the first corruption to The Way, but a necessity for those who were impure, his corruption was utilized, however the problem isn't that much with Paul then it is with those who wrote under his name, some were excellent and some not so much.

Personally I feel that Paul's Gnosticism varied from Yeshua's in important parts. Paul's was more monastic, sort of like Buddhism, everything was sinful to some capacity, the body, your whole being (the lower) was sinful and you had to deny, deny, deny, not accept and work on (yeshua's teaching don't reflect that the body was sinful). This is one thing that was not directly what Yeshua was saying, likewise Yeshua's path focused doing unto others as you would have them do unto
you, that is applying and helping your fellow brothers/sisters who have fallen (not converting them, but helping them where they are at). And through helping them, you would be working on your lower nature through proxy, as their vibration and defective nature correlates to a reality within yourself, so you are engaging this rogue
nature in yourself through them. Paul's wasn't much like this, his was more stay away from them... you could say Paul was more so telling one to deny or negate many things at times, but again, many wrote in his name and sometimes their was contradictions. However Paul is a source to many different forms of Gnosticism, Valentinus definitely spoke of Paul highly, in fact it is said that what Valentinus brought about was what Paul was hiding (personally I think Valentinus rather corrected Paul in areas). But with that said, within the Epistles there are some truly great things, but again there is a lot of corruption and the fact that people wrote under his name. If you look at his Epistles its really strange, many of them start off amazing, like Corinthians, which for the first 3 chapters, especially chapter 3 is wonderful, then it becomes less and fragmented, then in other parts it picks up again to the point. If you look at Hebrews, lol, that's just like completely different from most. What is certain is that most of those references to "Jesus Christ" in the Epistles were mostly all just Christ and wasn't referring to a literal person, but the Anointing.

Anyways I found this while searching around, sort of interesting...

"In calling Paulinism 'Christocentric', one raises the question as to its relation to the Gospel proclaimed by Jesus... how far he unconsciously modified the Gospel by making Christ its subject matter rather than its revealer.... Paul... put all into so fresh a perspective as to change the relative emphasis on points
central to the teaching of Jesus, and so alter its spirit. A school of writers, by no means unappreciative of Paul as they understand him, of whom W. Wrede may be taken as example, answer that Paul so changed Christianity as to become its 'second founder' - the real founder of ecclesiastical Christianity as distinct from the Christianity of Jesus. They say, 'either Jesus or Paul' it cannot be both at once'". (Jesus and Paul, the Encyclopedia Britannica)

by Unprofitable Servant on Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:26 am

Hi Bob,

Admin wrote:
Sounds like you are equating Paul to 'Satan', or saying that Paul was a dedicated follower of Satan.

Well, that is precisely what I am saying too ~ for my definition of 'satan' (the 'adversary' / 'enemy') IS one's unenlightened (carnal) MIND, i.e. that which Paul was following.

You will find the vast majority of people (practically everyone) follow their own mind, and those in mental institutions are merely more obsessed, overpowered, or deluded with their mind than most others.

Peace, Love, & Understanding ~ Bob

Perhaps my view on this is simplistic, that God exists as a real being (although spirit) and the Evil one is a real being (although spirit), and that Heaven exists as a real place, and that Hell exists as a real place (which I only know too well).

I wouldn't say Paul is the evil one himself. In fact I strongly believe this is going too far.

We need to remember how easy it is for ourselves from time to time to be as Peter: at one moment speaking wisdom from God (Mt 16:17); the very next moment, the evil one's mouthpiece (Mt 16:23). And we should remember how an evil action or an evil word can often appear to be good, but it deceives us as it deceived Peter to suggest to Jesus to save his life in this world. And we should remember how little strength we have against this power without the grace and help of God.

It is my contention that Paul was a man, as we are, able to be misdirected. It is not good to bear ill feeling towards him. Even so, his teachings are not true. The Master said one is our teacher, and one is our father, that is God in Heaven.

Peace,
Mark

PAUL ~ FALSE APOSTLE & FIRST 'CHRISTIAN' (#1 of 8)