man or machine

by sopherim7 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:06 pm

i recieved this quote in an e-mail this morning and it struck a cord, it really made me think of you passerby

"First
of all it is necessary to understand that a Christian is not a man who
calls himself a Christian or whom others call a Christian. A Christian
is one who lives in accordance with Christ's precepts. Such as we are
we cannot be Christians. In order to be Christians we must be able 'to
do.' We cannot do; with us everything 'happens.' Christ says: 'Love
your enemies,' but how can we love our enemies when we cannot even love
our friends? Sometimes 'it loves' and sometimes 'it does not love.'
Such as we are we cannot even really desire to be Christians because,
again, sometimes 'it desires' and sometimes 'it does not desire.' And
one and the same thing cannot be desired for long, because suddenly,
instead of desiring to be a Christian, a man remembers a very good but
very expensive carpet that he has seen in a shop. And instead of
wishing to be a Christian he begins to think how he can manage to buy
this carpet, forgetting all about Christianity. Or if somebody else
does not believe what a wonderful Christian he is, he will be ready to
eat him alive or to roast him on hot coals. In order to be a good
Christian one must be. To be means to be master of oneself. If a man is
not his own master he has nothing and can have nothing. And he cannot
be a Christian. He is simply a machine, an automaton. A machine cannot
be a Christian. Think for yourselves, is it possible for a motorcar or
a typewriter or a gramophone to be Christian? They are simply things
which are controlled by chance. They are not responsible. They are
machines. To be a Christian means to be responsible. Responsibility
comes later when a man even partially ceases to be a machine, and
begins in fact, and not only in words, to desire to be a Christian." -
GI Gurdjieff

-------------

by The_Passerby on Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:35 pm

sopherim7 wrote:i recieved this quote in an e-mail this morning and it struck a cord, it really made me think of you passerby

"First
of all it is necessary to understand that a Christian is not a man who
calls himself a Christian or whom others call a Christian. A Christian
is one who lives in accordance with Christ's precepts. Such as we are
we cannot be Christians. In order to be Christians we must be able 'to
do.' We cannot do; with us everything 'happens.' Christ says: 'Love
your enemies,' but how can we love our enemies when we cannot even love
our friends? Sometimes 'it loves' and sometimes 'it does not love.'
Such as we are we cannot even really desire to be Christians because,
again, sometimes 'it desires' and sometimes 'it does not desire.' And
one and the same thing cannot be desired for long, because suddenly,
instead of desiring to be a Christian, a man remembers a very good but
very expensive carpet that he has seen in a shop. And instead of
wishing to be a Christian he begins to think how he can manage to buy
this carpet, forgetting all about Christianity. Or if somebody else
does not believe what a wonderful Christian he is, he will be ready to
eat him alive or to roast him on hot coals. In order to be a good
Christian one must be. To be means to be master of oneself. If a man is
not his own master he has nothing and can have nothing. And he cannot
be a Christian. He is simply a machine, an automaton. A machine cannot
be a Christian. Think for yourselves, is it possible for a motorcar or
a typewriter or a gramophone to be Christian? They are simply things
which are controlled by chance. They are not responsible. They are
machines. To be a Christian means to be responsible. Responsibility
comes later when a man even partially ceases to be a machine, and
begins in fact, and not only in words, to desire to be a Christian." -
GI Gurdjieff

Gurdijeff is one of the men who knows. People think they are one thing, when they are entirely not. They often say I am Christian or any of the names that they attribute to their faiths, but they are not these things and it is only a illusion to see themselves as these things. These titles are formula's of being, they are mindsets that a man must constantly strive to be. And as Gurdjieff explains, in order to be, they must be able to do, and in order to do they must overcome themselves and by overcome themselves I am saying they must definitely become a properly functioning individual -- one who has set himself right and is no longer divided within himself but is a wholeness. A man is a machine for this very reason, because he is on autopilot and is missing the pilot, his automatism is that at every level of his physical being he is trapped in his associations, the many in him clings to the vibration that correlate to its own. At any moment, you have a little personality that cares for another, but at the same time, given the stimulus, another depises. This is why people do not comprehend love. Love is a process, it is what one attains when they put on the anointed mind. Right now, no one can Understand or comprehend the Love of Yeshua. God was said to be Love, yet man thinks he is capable of what God is. For them to love to must truly be and see everything as it is. And all of this weighs on the law of the divine pattern -- the battle of the sexes takes place within a man. If a man can bring about the bridal chamber or the marriage within himself he brings about the harmonic third force and can develop this force to completion.

Grudjieff concept of man is that natural man is only probably 1/7 of what he can be, for relative purposes, man is only 1/4 of what he can be. And I agree, but just in a different manner. In Gnosticism this is preceived in the 3 fold nature, hylic, psychic, and pneumatic, and the reality that there are many animals in the form of man. This relates to the reality that man, in regards his being, could be more on the level or in common with a wolf or some other animal than a man, in the true sense of one.

This relates to the Archons, because what is not mentioned by Gurdjieff is that this function of automatism is a reality of the laws working upon the mind and body of man, the natural forces which preside over ones thinking, feeling, and etc, not only this but over the whole world which bring about every single event -- which forces help in the structuring of mind and etc, the movement of energy, and development of man. So life is filled with struggle, because the work on oneself is what is the necessity to be obtained, experiential knowledge.

by sopherim7 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:50 pm

i am excited about finding this man thru that e-mail , and i want to introduce him and his philosophy to every one i am going to continue reading his work ,i am so excited , thank you as well passerby for allowing GOD to use you here.

:flower:sopherim

by Prism1111 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:13 am

Sopherim, as some one who cares I will say one should be wise to discern that which is to be taken to heart. This post here is riddled with irregularities, joining of two dissimilar examples, and some are just plane false or rather little wisdom or knowledge has a basis in the summary of them.

Let me explain; A Christian or Jew, or any religion is diffinately a man taking on the label and trying to fulfil traditions (Precipts) of traditional things of Jesus not Christ for their idea of salvation under it.

Christians can do things and we cannot? who are the We he is talking about? We Gnostics? If this be so knowledge lacks exceedingly.. If we know ourselves it is from the doing of ourselves with the Father who rejoices in that doing. ounce we attain a oneness with Him, we now reign over this realm from knowing the level in the Father we are at, so I ask him what of any part of this level is not to know, at our disposal to do and achieve in with ease, at our wish.

He talks of desire, carpets,vanity from on lookers for rewards , automobiles and the like, this is all of the Mortal realm, and He is percieving it from the point of view of the mortal realm also, Not a Gnostic view at all.

Then it tends to be realy confusing when mixing Men with Machines as if there should be any comparisen at all.
The only one there is that Men without the light are making the machines to perpetuate the Darkside within Gods deficiency until this Realm of time is complete.

Sopherim You are Great in the Father with a Prestine Heart that has tremendouse power, The powers that be, want to break you of this, for they have no game in it, at all, they are powerless and only can tease when a window is left open. I know it too. There is nothing you lack Gal, Nothing.

As a Devouted brother in Christ, I say this in Love.

Thomas.......... rendeer

by The_Passerby on Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:26 am

Prism1111 wrote:Sopherim, as some one who cares I will say one should be wise to discern that which is to be taken to heart. This post here is riddled with irregularities, joining of two dissimilar examples, and some are just plane false or rather little wisdom or knowledge has a basis in the summary of them.

Let me explain; A Christian or Jew, or any religion is diffinately a man taking on the label and trying to fulfil traditions (Precipts) of traditional things of Jesus not Christ for their idea of salvation under it.

Christians can do things and we cannot? who are the We he is talking about? We Gnostics? If this be so knowledge lacks exceedingly.. If we know ourselves it is from the doing of ourselves with the Father who rejoices in that doing. ounce we attain a oneness with Him, we now reign over this realm from knowing the level in the Father we are at, so I ask him what of any part of this level is not to know, at our disposal to do and achieve in with ease, at our wish.

He talks of desire, carpets,vanity from on lookers for rewards , automobiles and the like, this is all of the Mortal realm, and He is percieving it from the point of view of the mortal realm also, Not a Gnostic view at all.

Then it tends to be realy confusing when mixing Men with Machines as if there should be any comparisen at all.
The only one there is that Men without the light are making the machines to perpetuate the Darkside within Gods deficiency until this Realm of time is complete.

Sopherim You are Great in the Father with a Prestine Heart that has tremendouse power, The powers that be, want to break you of this, for they have no game in it, at all, they are powerless and only can tease when a window is left open. I know it too. There is nothing you lack Gal, Nothing.

As a Devouted brother in Christ, I say this in Love.

Thomas..........

Thomas I must say, and I am sorry to say, but you do not know anything about Gurdjieff and what you are doing, in all honesty, is projecting a image of the teachings which are not in keeping with what he taught at all. I have a lot of respect for Gurdjieff, some things I don't like -- but he is hard to be understood, at times. In any case he is good for some. It's not really a fair assessment Thomas I know you are capable of more than that. Perhaps you should try to see why or come to understand why man is referred to as being a machine? Perhaps that would be a better means of expression, to seek to understand another -- to have empathy and suspend oneself, to have humility and openness and when you have actually understood it and discern it, then make your judgments objectively. Because it appears like you are not even trying to understand it, because you clearly do not. But that is your right to deny, reject, and judge things that you don't know or haven't even tried to give a chance to.

What is expressed in man being a machine is no different than anything that is found in the bible just Yeshua used far more direct words. Man being dead, let the dead bury the dead, the pharisees being walking graves, man being asleep, and many other such things.

I edited my post, because the teachings speak for themselves. I need not add anything to it and if one doesn't want to gain anything from them, they don't. This is their decision, however to tell another not to, when you yourself know nothing about it, is not right. If she shows interest in it, this is good and can assist her in becoming whole.

by Brian on Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:14 am

I read some of his writing a few years ago. I liked one of his sayings. That "man is one thing -- one moment -- and another thing the next" (or something like that.)

Also his ideas about how the soul goes to the moon -- I can't remember.

I had some cool dreams after reading his writing. (I may have went to the moon)

Great job on embedding the Youtube video - Sopherim!

by The_Passerby on Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:51 am

Brian wrote:I read some of his writing a few years ago. I liked one of his sayings. That "man is one thing -- one moment -- and another thing the next" (or something like that.)

Also his ideas about how the soul goes to the moon -- I can't remember.

I had some cool dreams after reading his writing. (I may have went to the moon)

Great job on embedding the Youtube video - Sopherim!

About the moon, well he mentioned something in regards to outerdarkness, souls going to moon. But this is sort of an allegory, the moon in that sense would represent a level of being -- a world that is of a lower vibration which there are more laws over. But he often refers to the moon as taking from man their vitality in order to grow. The moon can take energy, so does the earth. But I know more about the earth then the moon in this sense. I know for a certainty that mans vital energy, his vital force is loss or squandered away into the earth and it helps to keep a mans mind earth-bound and shackled to organic limitations where they continuously cycle in the old and are completely stuck under this natural organic limition of mind. Although I do believe one can go to the moon, as in a astral experience.

The world feeds from man -- it becomes a sort of consciousness of this world. The world is a body, as long as the cells by law are manitaned in their movements, the body feeds from these. But when one raises their mind above the mundane and actually begins to BE, this has an effect of a vital energy loss. It invokes the laws, as a man begins to draw within himself and uses that vitality that he waste on cyclic automatic thoughts, his personality being caught up in its vices, and etc, he no longer expends this energy into the world but rather he uses this vitality to grow his mind, to expand his mind beyond the natural limitations that it is imbued with. Einstein said energy goes somewhere, because it never dies. Man's energy is not used for anything above the mundane, it only serves the very limited fucntion of his physical needs of the organism, but is not used to develop the mind beyond the physical level.

Gurdjieff is funny though, he said something like, if all of man were to awaken, although impossible, the moon would die because of the loss of vitality energy would be used for the work on oneself.

by sopherim7 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:59 am

truth is truth no matter where or how we find it , i am not one to believe things because someone says it is so,at all in fact i usually am more apt to react disagreeably first ,and do my own research ,and even so it is just reading what someone else thinks , truth must resonate from deep within the depths of what i already KNOW based on experience.

to me being a machine is to react automatically with out any thought, with out effort. to do what we are programmed to do by our up bringing ,our environment , our peers and how we have already predetermined THEY think we should act.
this is the exact opposite of how i am attempting to live my life. being a machine also means how we have been programmed to react to our feelings,and emotions and lacks rationalism . feelings and emotion are very important and must be used in conjunction with the mind of Christ this is balance ,this is how we should live each moment it takes submission to Christ
death to self , this is my goal to achieve balance of self in respect to GOD in me AND the love of GOD for me and all people,this is how right thoughts ,decisions and actions are reached. this is the rest and peace i seek and desire with a fierce burning passion, that at times can consume my whole day and leave me exhausted. to then realize this is something i in my self cannot do ,i must let go and let Christ in me do it . and like a shimmer of bubbles up and down my spine from the core of my being,i sense and grasp for fleeting moments the peace and love of GOD and the unity of the one , the wholeness of achieving the I AM presence of GOD thru CHRIST in me the hope of glory

brian ........... oh yeah, oh yeah , oh yeah , i did it i was so excited when i saw it worked ,thank you it will add alot to posts as far as depth and texture and being able to put music to a post will greatly enhance the feelings behind the post
again thank you for sharing your wisdom with us Very Happy

sopherim

by Brian on Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:32 am

This is the book I have -- where I read about Gurdjieff's teachings:

http://books.google.com/books?id=bWEKAAAACAAJ&dq=intitle:hidden+intitle:wisdom&lr=&num=100&as_brr=0&source=gbs_other_versions_sidebar_s&cad=7

A later edition of the book has "read inside" capability.
This link starts at the chapter about Gurdjieff:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1uTgYGT3quAC&pg=PA207&dq=intitle:hidden+intitle:wisdom&lr=&num=100&as_brr=0&output=html&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=0_0&sig=ACfU3U3Vf7V3amKg7xvdl-7kEOjPrL_JFw

Other "hidden wisdom" google-book searches:

http://books.google.com/books?as_q=&num=100&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_libcat=0&as_brr=0&lr=&as_vt=hidden+wisdom&as_auth=&as_pub=&as_sub=&as_drrb=c&as_miny=&as_maxy=&as_isbn=

by Prism1111 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:55 am

Sopherim, forgive me for reaching a kind of summary without knowing what was being said within that text, I see now that saying we can not do, he ment we as people in general without the Father within us. This was a key difinition I even questioned but continued in the summary that way which through the whole context of it, off by one, which was an opposite. I also see now He was talking in more simpler terms then I was trying to anaylze it. excuse me pressumtions, if I get time I may read some of the gentalmen.

Peace always

Bro Thomas.....

by sopherim7 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:45 am

my dear sweet brother i love you and respect you so very very much there is nothing for me to forgive , i hope you were not offended by my post . i was trying to reassure you that , i am carefull

sopherim

by Brian on Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:09 am

Brian wrote:This link starts at the chapter about Gurdjieff:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1uTgYGT3quAC&pg=PA207&dq=intitle:hidden+intitle:wisdom&lr=&num=100&as_brr=0&output=html&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=0_0&sig=ACfU3U3Vf7V3amKg7xvdl-7kEOjPrL_JFw

You only can read the first 4 pages of this chapter online

That's a interesting book though. I liked it.

Some of Gurdjieff's themes:

-The "sleep" of the ordinary life.

-The disunity of the human being. (man is a plurality) (man's name is legion)

-Man is Tripartite (intellect/emotions/instinctive & motor functions)

-Man cannot master himself because these centers have become "independent outward functions"

-This disjunction is compounded by our "sleep" or hypnotic trance we live in.

-Kundalini really means the "power of imagination"

-The tripartite "centers" can be helped by imagination

-"Kundabuffers" keep the different "I"'s from confronting each other. (dissociation?)

-We have the /possibility/ of having Immortal-souls (higher being-bodies)

-No immortality for undeveloped human beings (the man-machines) who are only one thing moment to moment

(his stuff is starting to come back to me now)

-Kundalini is a force to keep men in the "hypnotic state"

-Gurdijeff says his ideas "belongs to ancient knowledge"

-The Moon is an "unborn planet" or "being born"

-In order to grow, the moon must be fed "cosmic energies" (life forms on earth die and their energies feed the moon)

(I'll have to read some more later...)

by Brian on Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:04 pm

-Gurdijeff says his ideas "belongs to ancient knowledge"

Correction. -Gurdijeff says the idea of the "Ray of Creation" "belongs to ancient knowledge"

The Ray of Creation:

Absolute
All Worlds
All Suns
Sun
All Planets
Earth
Moon

It's a sort of "scale" of "cosmic laws."

by Brian on Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:05 pm

Gurdijeff-ism definately follows in-line with religious tradition.

has broad range of appeal
makes wild claims
fiction presented as truth
deliberately confusing
deliberately baffling
deliberately distorted
deliberately contradictory
has metaphors
bolsters the ego
offers hope and no-hope

Good Moon-Food!

by sopherim7 on Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:04 am

is that not the way all things seem to work most of the time.

i find that , thats why we must search all things for truth and ingest it when we find it
that is why it is so important to seperate fact from opinion no matter what it does to our ego and admitting ...
.... well shit, im sorry I AM WRONG besides i love you those are the three hardest words to say together in a sentence What a Face

sopherim

man or machine

man or machine

Re: man or machine

the fourth way

Man and machine

Re: man or machine

Re: man or machine

Re: man or machine

lessons in every thing

Re: man or machine

On Gurdjief

i love you prisim

Re: man or machine

Re: man or machine

Re: man or machine

make up my mind.