SPIRITUAL SIMPLICITY

Many great intellectuals spend their whole lives discussing and arguing over theological beliefs and dogmas. This has been an ongoing exercise since the formations of various religions. Yet where has it actually led us? What do we actually KNOW from these debates? What are their conclusions?

I would personally conclude that all this talk about religious beliefs / theology has merely led us into more confusion. This is obvious from the continuous and steady growth of more and more heresies (i.e. "choices").

The problem lies in the fact that these theologians (and others) are merely using their intellects to analyze that which is beyond the 'common' mind. This is why Jesus apparently told us that we must become like little children in order to understand the Truth, and to enter the Kingdom of God (see e.g. Matthew 18:3; Mark 10:15; Luke 10:21 & 18:17).

Until we truly put our own intellect / mind / ego / persona behind us, and SEEK for Truth with an open (child-like / un-indoctrinated) mind, we will never discover the answers - for the answers are NOT INTELLECTUAL!

PLU

right-o Bob ,good post! i am really starting to see the roots of my own brain washing.as i spend time with God in meditation and prayer and he reveals things to my heart and mind sometimes it is scarey and i stop it because alot of times it is not what i was taught to believe. I am seekinging earnestly to let go of that habit.
i love to read and study when time allows,i do study theology and religion,i study people and how they think,and do much spiritual council. none of that matters if i am afraid of truth.
I want to take GOD OUT OF THE BOX THAT HE HAS BEEN PUT IN, RELIGION HAS DOMESTICATED GOD FOR ITS OWN PURPOSE and has enslaved sincere seekers for its own benefit for thousands of years. and i think we are on the crux of a global awakening that no man woman or child will be able to ignore.as the economy gets worse as time moves faster and people can not exist in this rat race . people ,i believe will truly start looking For Gods help, as they break down mentally emotionally and physically. they will then turn to the ones who DO HAVE REAL VISABLE PEACE in there lives
those people are the ones who have lived in truth ,walked in truth consistently. people who have kept them selves awake and aware,and have not been deceived by the falicey of mans world and these people are the GNOSTICS

sopherim

Take God out of the box? Are you crazy? Anarchy! Chaos! The complete annihilation of all that is sacred! And completely unreasonable car insurance!!

Sounds fun.


Good post, Bob. While I know I didn't agree with you on this subject when we first we became friends, I am DEFINATELY seeing the wisdom of it now.

That may have been too long, so in short --

Debate is both good and bad, given the moment, the person, and what needs to be worked on. While I would not seek out debates, my standard is not others standards and nor should they be! Some cling to dedate because of their fragmented personality and a certain enticement which is emotional -- like sexual.

That is all, not going to mention the other things about the mind in this.

you rock passerby.....you so rock
sopherim

While I do agree that debate is good (as long as it is used as a learning process, tho all to many times it is used to try to impress someone or used to put someone down for what they think, and that is when it is NOT good), it still won't bring you gnosis.

Good point.

" it is a reality of divided individuals who only possess a fragment of truth often debating with others and blaming in others what they possess themselves that they can't even see"

Now THAT is as true as it gets....

Admin wrote:Many great intellectuals spend their whole lives discussing and arguing over theological beliefs and dogmas. This has been an ongoing exercise since the formations of various religions. Yet where has it actually led us? What do we actually KNOW from these debates? What are their conclusions?

I would personally conclude that all this talk about religious beliefs / theology has merely led us into more confusion. This is obvious from the continuous and steady growth of more and more heresies (i.e. "choices").

The problem lies in the fact that these theologians (and others) are merely using their intellects to analyze that which is beyond the 'common' mind. This is why Jesus apparently told us that we must become like little children in order to understand the Truth, and to enter the Kingdom of God (see e.g. Matthew 18:3; Mark 10:15; Luke 10:21 & 18:17).

Until we truly put our own intellect / mind / ego / persona behind us, and SEEK for Truth with an open (child-like / un-indoctrinated) mind, we will never discover the answers - for the answers are NOT INTELLECTUAL!

PLU

Hi Admin, I do agree that theology has led the many into confusion. Sort of like how Nebuchadnezzar led the Israealites into Babylon. But there did come a time in which the exiles came back to Jerusalem and re-built the Temple. I am of the belief that those dwelling in confusion should come out of it and return to the "teaching of peace," and help in rebuilding the Spiritual House of the Holy One of Israel. This is my first post here and I do want to say hi. Are there any here who have come out of confusion? I would like to build with you. Sprinkler7.

Sprinkler7 wrote:Hi Admin, I do agree that theology has led the many into confusion. Sort of like how Nebuchadnezzar led the Israealites into Babylon. But there did come a time in which the exiles came back to Jerusalem and re-built the Temple. I am of the belief that those dwelling in confusion should come out of it and return to the "teaching of peace," and help in rebuilding the Spiritual House of the Holy One of Israel. This is my first post here and I do want to say hi. Are there any here who have come out of confusion? I would like to build with you. Sprinkler7.

Hi Sprinkler, welcome to THE WAY, and please call me Bob.

I think the only way that the masses can rid themselves of confusion and return to the 'Spiritual House of Peace' is to truly understand that Theology means God-Logos, and has nothing to do with intellectual reasoning and the common mind. It is, in fact, the fundamental route of gnosis.

Peace, Love, & Understanding ~ Bob

Admin wrote:
Until we truly put our own intellect / mind / ego / persona behind us, and SEEK for Truth with an open (child-like / un-indoctrinated) mind, we will never discover the answers - for the answers are NOT INTELLECTUAL!

Bob I quite agree with this. I don't see any other way. If a lot of words and a lot of theology was the answer, the world would be in quite a different state from what we see now. I am personally fed up with reading scriptures. Yes they are interesting, but they are also a trap. Free your mind and look at things anew.

Thank you Bob for the welcome. I have spent a little time in reading some of treads and I really like how you think about sacrifice. You have a very good handle on how the shedding of innocent blood appeases no one. I also liked reading what Chukuma and BelzeBob wrote and was sorry to see BB leave. I do disagree with you a little about Paul/Shaul, in my opinion, he was the greatest Gnostic writer found in all of Scripture (his writings were filled with deep sayings which ignorant, unstable, and lawless men twisted and distorted). Speaking of deep sayings, I followed your thread " DID GOD EVER REALLY REQUIRE BLOOD SACRIFICES ?," and was wondering if you have an opinion as to why the law was added, and what it was added to, and what did Paul mean when he said the law is spiritual? Oh, and I find your initials intriguing (ABS)...I have a brother that uses (AB). Sprinkler7/KP

Admin wrote:

Sprinkler7 wrote:Hi Admin, I do agree that theology has led the many into confusion. Sort of like how Nebuchadnezzar led the Israealites into Babylon. But there did come a time in which the exiles came back to Jerusalem and re-built the Temple. I am of the belief that those dwelling in confusion should come out of it and return to the "teaching of peace," and help in rebuilding the Spiritual House of the Holy One of Israel. This is my first post here and I do want to say hi. Are there any here who have come out of confusion? I would like to build with you. Sprinkler7.

Hi Sprinkler, welcome to THE WAY, and please call me Bob.

I think the only way that the masses can rid themselves of confusion and return to the 'Spiritual House of Peace' is to truly understand that Theology means God-Logos, and has nothing to do with intellectual reasoning and the common mind. It is, in fact, the fundamental route of gnosis.

Peace, Love, & Understanding ~ Bob

Sprinkler7 wrote:Thank you Bob for the welcome. I have spent a little time in reading some of treads and I really like how you think about sacrifice. You have a very good handle on how the shedding of innocent blood appeases no one. I also liked reading what Chukuma and BelzeBob wrote and was sorry to see BB leave. I do disagree with you a little about Paul/Shaul, in my opinion, he was the greatest Gnostic writer found in all of Scripture (his writings were filled with deep sayings which ignorant, unstable, and lawless men twisted and distorted). Speaking of deep sayings, I followed your thread " DID GOD EVER REALLY REQUIRE BLOOD SACRIFICES ?," and was wondering if you have an opinion as to why the law was added, and what it was added to, and what did Paul mean when he said the law is spiritual? Oh, and I find your initials intriguing (ABS)...I have a brother that uses (AB). Sprinkler7/KP

Hi Sprinkler

Concerning why a (carnal) 'law of sacrifice' was instigated, I will quote (a possibility) from my book:

One ancient and universal example of the erroneous beliefs of all religions is their unanimous interpretation of the originally Spiritual Law of ‘Sacrifice’.[1] The original Law required that each of us sacrifice (i.e. make Sacred/Pure/Holy) our own initial (i.e. ‘first-born’) animalistic (beastly/carnal/unspiritual) nature, through the purifying ‘flame’ (God’s Light [2]) of Truth, in order that we might be ‘reborn’ (resurrected) into Spiritual consciousness (i.e. ‘True and Eternal Life’) – or, to put it another way, we must each abolish (‘kill’) our own (initially) ‘beastly’ (carnal) nature.[3] This original and eternal Law was (and still is) interpreted by various materialistic / literalistic priesthoods to mean that God requires the bloody slaughter of (‘first-born’ and ‘pure’) human or animal victims to absolve the sins of humanity!

Orthodox Christianity has interpreted Jesus’ crucifixion in the same carnal way (i.e. as a ‘blood’ sacrifice for our sins).[4] Such false interpretations of the true and eternal Law provided the materialistic ‘self-appointed’ priesthoods with great power over the populace as well as a large source of income and wealth. Such income was derived from their monopolistic control of suitably ‘pure’ sacrificial victims, and the later resale of their flesh and hides.[5] This unique sacrificial authority of the priesthood, along with all the material benefits which were to revert to them, was eventually written down in the ‘name of God’, and thus entered various religious scriptures such as the Hebrew Bible (see e.g. the first nine chapters of LEVITICUS – named after the hereditary Jerusalem Temple keepers, the Levites).[6] All genuine Prophets, who stated that God had never asked for such carnal rituals, condemned these blood sacrifices.[7] Of course, today the priesthoods rely on other superficial rites and rituals to compliment the drama and maintain their power, such as consuming the supposed body and blood of Jesus.[8] This is just one example of the many errors which materialistic / literalistic priests and scholars of all religions have made (and are still making) in their interpretation of Spiritual Truth.
_______________________________________

FOOTNOTES:

[1] The word ‘sacrifice’ originally meant, “to make sacred or holy”. It had nothing to do with bloodshed and the physical murder of humans or animals as an offering to God! Does not God command: ‘Thou shall not kill?’

[2] The Vision of God (the Divine Light, Heb. Shekhinah) is often described as a ‘flame of fire,’ ‘lightning,’ the ‘Sun,’ etc. “The Angel of the Lord appeared to him (Moses) as a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he saw that the bush burned with fire, but was not consumed (i.e. is Eternal).” (EXOD.3:2; cf. EXOD.19:18; 24:17; DEUT.4:24; PSA.18:8-12; EZEK.1:4-5 & 27; DAN.10:6; HEB.12:29).
“He (God) makes the breath His messenger, and flames of fire his ministers.” (PSA.104:4).

[3] "Present your [own] bodies (i.e. the lower self / carnal ego) as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God.” (ROM.12:1).

[4] This idea probably originated with St. Paul (see e.g. 1^stCOR.5:7; ROM.3:25; 5:8-9; 9:26-28 & 10:10; & EPH.5:2 & 9:28 ). Jesus is reported to have said: “For this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world: to testify to the Truth.” (JOHN 18:37) – not to die as a sacrificial victim (a totally false and unspiritual
concept)!

[5] “The sacrifices made to God are re-sold by the priests, who then spend the proceeds on themselves.” (BARUCH - 'The Letter of Jeremiah' 6:27-28 ). See also 1^stSAM.2:13-16. The whole of LEVITICUS is concerned with the clergy’s power and control over the nation’s worship, and the great material and financial benefits they could derive from such. Much like the Catholic Church selling indulgences in the Middle Ages. Such practices are commonly known as simony.

[6] “How can you say: ‘We are wise: we possess the Law of the Lord?’ for the lying pens of the scribes have falsified it!” (JER.8:8 ). Such lying applies to some of the original writings, as well as to the later copying, editing, and translation processes. “In the process of time ungodly customs strengthen, and are eventually observed as Law!” (WISDOM 14:16).

[7] See e.g. JER.7:22; HOSEA 6:6; ISAIAH 1:11-15 & 66:3; PSA.40:6 & 51:16; MIC.6:6-8; AMOS 5:21-22; & HEB.10:4-6.

[8] The Christian sacraments of the bread and wine (‘flesh’ and ‘blood’) are merely symbolic forms and replicas of many ancient pagan rites, and are intended to preserve the monopolistic control of the priesthood.
------------------------------

As far as Paul/Saul is concerned, I believe that he was the main instigator of Jesus' crucifixion being believed to be a necessary "atonement"/"blood sacrifice" for his followers - something I find unforgivable.

PLU ~ Bob

Hi Bob,
Your concern with how traditional chrisitianity has made it appear that we have a blood-thirsty diety is well noted. They have taken what Paul wrote and turned it into something that he never intended it to mean. I also agree that the pure purpose of sacrifice is to teach us how to ascend up and not remain in the ashes. When I asked your opinion on why the law was added, I was thinking along the lines of it as a Covenant. The Law Covenant was added to the Covenant which was made to Abraham and his Seed (singular)(Gal 3:16). At the time the Law Covenant was added, it was a "new" Covenant, and any Covenant that gets added cannot take away from the previous Covenant (Gal 3:17).

Now, here is how I believe Paul was thinking. The Promises were made to Abraham and his Seed. The Promise was that Abraham and his Seed would inherit the kosmos (which is everything-Rom 4:13). The Covenant of the Law was added to ensure that the Promises would be kept. Think along the lines of Romans 5. Paul wrote that sin (transgression of a command) entered through one man (Rom 5:12), and the law was added to INCREASE that transgression (Rom 5:20). Why would Paul be thinking like this? The Promises were made to Abraham who kept everything he was commanded to do (Gen 26:5), and His Seed followed in his footsteps, which He noted should be done (John 8:39). When flesh is given a command, flesh sins (Adam was flesh, and those who live in the flesh are powerless to keep what is commanded--Rom 8:7-8 ), and transgression occurs. So by adding the Covenant of the Law to fleshly mankind, transgression was increased, thereby making it very easy to identify the True Seed of Abraham. Does this make any sense?

Also Bob, in Romans 5:12, Paul states that Adam was a type or figure of the One coming. What do you think he meant? How was Adam like Christ? Sprinkler7/KP

Admin wrote:

Hi Sprinkler

Concerning why a (carnal) 'law of sacrifice' was instigated, I will quote (a possibility) from my book:

One ancient and universal example of the erroneous beliefs of all religions is their unanimous interpretation of the originally Spiritual Law of ‘Sacrifice’.[1] The original Law required that each of us sacrifice (i.e. make Sacred/Pure/Holy) our own initial (i.e. ‘first-born’) animalistic (beastly/carnal/unspiritual) nature, through the purifying ‘flame’ (God’s Light [2]) of Truth, in order that we might be ‘reborn’ (resurrected) into Spiritual consciousness (i.e. ‘True and Eternal Life’) – or, to put it another way, we must each abolish (‘kill’) our own (initially) ‘beastly’ (carnal) nature.[3] This original and eternal Law was (and still is) interpreted by various materialistic / literalistic priesthoods to mean that God requires the bloody slaughter of (‘first-born’ and ‘pure’) human or animal victims to absolve the sins of humanity!

Orthodox Christianity has interpreted Jesus’ crucifixion in the same carnal way (i.e. as a ‘blood’ sacrifice for our sins).[4] Such false interpretations of the true and eternal Law provided the materialistic ‘self-appointed’ priesthoods with great power over the populace as well as a large source of income and wealth. Such income was derived from their monopolistic control of suitably ‘pure’ sacrificial victims, and the later resale of their flesh and hides.[5] This unique sacrificial authority of the priesthood, along with all the material benefits which were to revert to them, was eventually written down in the ‘name of God’, and thus entered various religious scriptures such as the Hebrew Bible (see e.g. the first nine chapters of LEVITICUS – named after the hereditary Jerusalem Temple keepers, the Levites).[6] All genuine Prophets, who stated that God had never asked for such carnal rituals, condemned these blood sacrifices.[7] Of course, today the priesthoods rely on other superficial rites and rituals to compliment the drama and maintain their power, such as consuming the supposed body and blood of Jesus.[8] This is just one example of the many errors which materialistic / literalistic priests and scholars of all religions have made (and are still making) in their interpretation of Spiritual Truth.
_______________________________________

FOOTNOTES:

[1] The word ‘sacrifice’ originally meant, “to make sacred or holy”. It had nothing to do with bloodshed and the physical murder of humans or animals as an offering to God! Does not God command: ‘Thou shall not kill?’

[2] The Vision of God (the Divine Light, Heb. Shekhinah) is often described as a ‘flame of fire,’ ‘lightning,’ the ‘Sun,’ etc. “The Angel of the Lord appeared to him (Moses) as a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he saw that the bush burned with fire, but was not consumed (i.e. is Eternal).” (EXOD.3:2; cf. EXOD.19:18; 24:17; DEUT.4:24; PSA.18:8-12; EZEK.1:4-5 & 27; DAN.10:6; HEB.12:29).
“He (God) makes the breath His messenger, and flames of fire his ministers.” (PSA.104:4).

[3] "Present your [own] bodies (i.e. the lower self / carnal ego) as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God.” (ROM.12:1).

[4] This idea probably originated with St. Paul (see e.g. 1^stCOR.5:7; ROM.3:25; 5:8-9; 9:26-28 & 10:10; & EPH.5:2 & 9:28 ). Jesus is reported to have said: “For this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world: to testify to the Truth.” (JOHN 18:37) – not to die as a sacrificial victim (a totally false and unspiritual
concept)!

[5] “The sacrifices made to God are re-sold by the priests, who then spend the proceeds on themselves.” (BARUCH - 'The Letter of Jeremiah' 6:27-28 ). See also 1^stSAM.2:13-16. The whole of LEVITICUS is concerned with the clergy’s power and control over the nation’s worship, and the great material and financial benefits they could derive from such. Much like the Catholic Church selling indulgences in the Middle Ages. Such practices are commonly known as simony.

[6] “How can you say: ‘We are wise: we possess the Law of the Lord?’ for the lying pens of the scribes have falsified it!” (JER.8:8 ). Such lying applies to some of the original writings, as well as to the later copying, editing, and translation processes. “In the process of time ungodly customs strengthen, and are eventually observed as Law!” (WISDOM 14:16).

[7] See e.g. JER.7:22; HOSEA 6:6; ISAIAH 1:11-15 & 66:3; PSA.40:6 & 51:16; MIC.6:6-8; AMOS 5:21-22; & HEB.10:4-6.

[8] The Christian sacraments of the bread and wine (‘flesh’ and ‘blood’) are merely symbolic forms and replicas of many ancient pagan rites, and are intended to preserve the monopolistic control of the priesthood.
------------------------------

As far as Paul/Saul is concerned, I believe that he was the main instigator of Jesus' crucifixion being believed to be a necessary "atonement"/"blood sacrifice" for his followers - something I find unforgivable.

PLU ~ Bob