IS GOD REALLY GOOD ?

ON JUNE 10, 1991, A COVER STORY APPEARED in Time magazine on the topic of evil. The author, Lance Morrow, did not argue for a particular thesis and did not reach any conclusions. What he did, however, was in a sense more important. He began by stating three propositions:

• God is all-powerful.
  
• God is all-good.
  
• Terrible things happen.
  

Citing several sources, Morrow said that you can match any two of these propositions, but not all three. You can declare that there is an all-powerful God who allows terrible things to happen, but this God could not be all-good. On the other hand, there might be an all-good God who lets terrible things happen because he does not have the power to stop them; thus he is not all-powerful.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS? WHAT ARE YOUR OPINIONS? ANY IDEAS? ANY ANSWERS?

PLU ~ Bob

Admin wrote:ON JUNE 10, 1991, A COVER STORY APPEARED in Time magazine on the topic of evil. The author, Lance Morrow, did not argue for a particular thesis and did not reach any conclusions. What he did, however, was in a sense more important. He began by stating three propositions:

• God is all-powerful.
  
• God is all-good.
  
• Terrible things happen.
  

Citing several sources, Morrow said that you can match any two of these propositions, but not all three. You can declare that there is an all-powerful God who allows terrible things to happen, but this God could not be all-good. On the other hand, there might be an all-good God who lets terrible things happen because he does not have the power to stop them; thus he is not all-powerful.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS? WHAT ARE YOUR OPINIONS? ANY IDEAS? ANY ANSWERS?

PLU ~ Bob

Bob to my understanding this is very easy to see if one takes on thier inward belief of the truth as truth, rather than taking on the Phrases porposed here as the Truth being all inclusive. He himself is judgung God according to his own standards of knowledge there fore it could not prove out to be 100%. why? the same as the deficiancy of Satan that was created, its being created outside of the father and the truth of the Father is not correct by the phrases He states then.
where does He extract His basis of Core attributes of the Father that he has givin as fact. Self assumtions from traditions of men? apparently so.

If one takes the words of Christ which are the Fathers words; He states the Father is all, everything, for there is nothing outside the father that has ever existed or will be.
So #1 being all powerful, Yes but many other things, like the essence of everything themselves that is. Love , hate , understanding, planting , reeping ,crying etc.. ..... Everything means everything. So all powerful is only a small portion of His completeness
#2 is all Good...yes again all everything again, at the opposit end of the spectrum , or that not with the Light of Father in it total, is deficient in its ability to be worthy of the side because of its choosing, Christ tells us to stay away from it, who is the words of the Father. Many donot see this part clearly.
#3 Terrible things happen.. yes they do if His creations fall from the light and choose to live on the powers of the dark side and degress in them from the power not held at bay during this time that was planterd in them in all free will to do so. But this will omly be allowed for an alotted time by Christs words; For that which is in you will save you, but that which is not in you will kill you. ( Thomas) See Christ is talking of the light of the Father in his Fulness, the seed of the Father is always there. May I add stopping in your day and noticing a beautiful flower growing , You can bring down heaven in a wish. No big theology needed, with you and your insights as the engine to accomplish it.

Here is another kind of Parable where You are like the Father, You have created your child from yourself and taught him, you taught him to drive with you, but you tell him not to drive alone without you, and these are your wishes and direction that must be aheard to.
one day he is alone and a curcumstance arises where he takes the car out alone, and happens to get in an accident which is against the law you set for him. Now the child is of You, the Car and its teaching to the child is of you, the accident is of one of you indirectly, creations which went against the father. After the child Crys and tells you of his deeds, as a good Father you see he has repented but still the deficiency must be corrected because it was all under you, but not by your will. With your wisdom you know what to do exactly, But their are lessons Your son will learn now to correct the deficiency alone with you taking control of it in all knowledge.
Do You see how this paterns the celestrial world of the Creation of Satan outside the Fathers will? but created by his power and control of another He gave?

God is Good and everything else too (but most don`t want to talk about the bad) it would bust to many bubbles we live in.. ayyy?

See all the bad for what it is, even up to God, yourcompleteness will take on a new strength indeed
Brother Thomas.........

God is good for having created a universe in which it's people could have a broad range of experience, like the senses of Freedom, Morality, Individuality, etc., even though (being all-knowing) this meant the introduction of "Evil" into the system.

God may be less-good, in a sense, for having "tricked" us in many ways - so we could have all these experiences.

Hi Bob,

This is known as the problem of evil (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil ) and has entertained philosophers for a very long time.

The three propositions can all be true. Firstly, let us insert a fourth proposition that is hereto implied:

1. God is all-powerful
2. God is all-good
3. Terrible things happen
4. God wills this experience in this world for us

It is usual to assume that God created us and put us here in this world for our benefit. Even though we know that terrible things happen and that there is a lot of unrighteousness in this world, we tend to assume that a righteous, good, all-knowing God created us and put us here instead of creating us into a perfect heaven where we would be sheltered from all unrighteousness.

But we should doubt this fourth proposition assumption because anyone born into this world quickly becomes a sinner, and God surely knows that. Why would God create us into an environment where we are doomed to fail? This can only be done by doubting the goodness of God.

Now consider an alternative to the fouth proposition with the original three unchanged:

1. God is all-powerful
2. God is all-good
3. Terrible things happen
4. God does not will this experience in this world for us

These propositions make logical sense. Rather than saying that we are in this world because of God's doing and God's desire, we should consider that through our own free will, we have willed a life in this world where we are able to practice unrighteousness far from the sight of God. Rather than God being responsible for the existence of the "terrible things", if we are honest with ourselves, we should accept that we ourselves are responsible some of the "terrible things" that exist in this world.

This brings us to why God wants us to practice of righteousness in this world - it is a repentence from the former will, and a desire to be where no unrighteousness exists. To do as the prodigal son, and renounce one's former willfulness.

Peace,
Mark

Well, as a gnostic I do not feel the Jewish-creator-God to be the TRUE 'God', the Living and Eternal ONE. I would say that the true 'God' is all good, but not all powerful. Power (along with control and other such related things) is NOT of the ONE. ONLY Love and Light comes from the ONE, nothing else. Power is left to the demiurge.

Interesting post, good food food for thought.

DarkChylde wrote:Well, as a gnostic I do not feel the Jewish-creator-God to be the TRUE 'God', the Living and Eternal ONE. I would say that the true 'God' is all good, but not all powerful. Power (along with control and other such related things) is NOT of the ONE. ONLY Love and Light comes from the ONE, nothing else. Power is left to the demiurge.

Interesting post, good food food for thought.

Hi DC,

The God of this World (demiurge) is not all good, and neither is his power forever.

Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away."
(GThom. 11).

Peace,
Mark

Yep. But for now, while we and the demiurge are trapped in time, he is DEFINATELY not 'all good' (if he is any good at all) but as far as having power, the demiurge would have the power NOW (tho the world that is beyond this doesn't exist in time, and the demiurge would be impotent there.)

Good point!

DarkChylde wrote: ONLY Love and Light comes from the ONE, nothing else. Power is left to the demiurge.

I know very little about the Gnostic religion (in the literal or narrow sense.) I understand the basic concept of Gnostic dualism.

I have a question for Gnostic literalists. Is there any form of 'prayer' or 'prayers' in the Gnostic (literalist) religion. Any form of prayer in literal Gnosticism seems illogical if there's nothing "out there" (beyond Demiurge) except the *powerless* "love and light."

Prayer to a powerless but benevolent Gnostic God seems like it would be a waste of time if it were "powerless" to help anyone in any practical sense.

In a mythical-allegorical framework, Gnostic religion seems to pack way-less punch than classical Christian religion.

Brian wrote:In a mythical-allegorical framework, Gnostic religion seems to pack way-less punch than classical Christian religion.

Perhaps that may be because gnosis is all about the KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE of LOVE, and PEACE, and LIGHT, and TRUTH, and BLISS - all very boring things for those who wallow in carnality and worldliness.

PLU ~ Bob

Admin wrote:

Brian wrote:In a mythical-allegorical framework, Gnostic religion seems to pack way-less punch than classical Christian religion.

Perhaps that may be because gnosis is all about the KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE of LOVE, and PEACE, and LIGHT, and TRUTH, and BLISS - all very boring things for those who wallow in carnality and worldliness.

PLU ~ Bob

I agree with the modern usage of words Gnosis, Gnostic, Gnosticism when used in the very broad sense. That is, I think it's appropriate using the words: (Gnosis, Gnostic, Gnosticism) as very generic terms or synonyms meaning: Enlightenment, Satori, Mystic-Experience, Esoteric, etc. (or the "knowledge" of the experience of these.)

To have Gurus run around and talk about Bliss, Peace and Love etc., really doesn't do much good without revealing the techniques used to arrive at such experiences. Just flashing around buzz-words isn't very illuminating (to me anyway). I'm more in favor of rational spirituality that can be more or less explained.

What is the nature and experience of experienceing "Peace" what is the experience like?

What is the nature and experience of experienceing "Light" what is the experience like?

What is the nature and experience of experienceing "Love" what is the experience like?

What is the nature and experience of experienceing "Bliss" what is the experience like?

However, my original question was aimed at the literalist/supernaturalist type Gnostics (those that believe in a literal Demiurge, etc.) That if 'prayer' is used in the Gnostic religion in any form at all - because it doesn't make any logical sense to pray either to the evil Demiurge who would probably give you the opposite of what you prayed for - or the powerless "Love and Light" that wouldn't be able do anything except keep on emitting or radiating "love and light."

The_Passerby wrote:All scripture is allegorical -- all scripture is thus Gnostic by nature from one perspective.

I disagree. Some scripture or religious writing is aimed towards mundane moral values and ethics. Some scripture or religious writing contains allegories for mystic-state experiences. And some scripture or religious writing have a socio-political context. Some for trying to lay out a historical perspective. And maybe some just for adventure stories.

Any religion that is worth it's ink will have a broad range of appeal. To the beginner, intermediate and advanced level intitiates.

Brian wrote:if 'prayer' is used in the Gnostic religion in any form at all

A quick search on google for "gnostic prayer" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=gnostic+prayer shows many examples of prayer to "all powerful" deities.

Apparently modern day Gnosticism is a huge mishmash of all sorts of religious ideas. It's very difficult to pin down exactly what Gnosticism actually means in the narrow sense.