Heresy and Trinitarianism

by Unprofitable Servant on Sat May 24, 2008 5:47 am

I've been reading a little about heretics through the history of the Church. It strikes me that almost all of the so-called heresies are rejections in one way or another of the doctrine of the Trinity.

I have a mish-mash of questions for your comment / discussion.

1. Does anyone know of a Gnostic Trinitarian, or is this a contradiction in terms?

2. Does anyone know of a non-Trinitarian sect that persecuted and killed members of a Trinitarian sect because of their Trinitarian opinions, or has the violence always been directed in the other direction?

3. Has anyone read Rubenstein's "When Jesus Became God" if it is really worth getting? http://www.amazon.com/When-Jesus-Became-God-Christianity/dp/0156013150

Peace,
Mark

by Admin on Sat May 24, 2008 6:22 am

Unprofitable Servant wrote:I've been reading a little about heretics through the history of the Church. It strikes me that almost all of the so-called heresies are rejections in one way or another of the doctrine of the Trinity.

I have a mish-mash of questions for your comment / discussion.

1. Does anyone know of a Gnostic Trinitarian, or is this a contradiction in terms?

2. Does anyone know of a non-Trinitarian sect that persecuted and killed members of a Trinitarian sect because of their Trinitarian opinions, or has the violence always been directed in the other direction?

3. Has anyone read Rubenstein's "When Jesus Became God" if it is really worth getting? http://www.amazon.com/When-Jesus-Became-God-Christianity/dp/0156013150

Peace,
Mark

Hi Mark,

In answer to your question #1.) I guess I could actually be termed a TRINITARIAN. Maybe not as the orthodox interpret it, but nevertheless, I accept the existence of the 'Father' (= ELOHIM); the 'Son' (= the human Teacher sent by Elohim); and the 'Holy Spirit' (= the Breath of Life or Divine Spark WITHIN US ALL which the Son reveals).

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

by Unprofitable Servant on Sat May 24, 2008 8:16 am

Likewise, I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist, but so did the Arians and all other so-called heretics. By Trinitarianism, I mean it in the orthodox manner (Jesus is God, The Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God: one God, three persons). So my questions is: are/were there any Gnostics who believe this? Even better, are there any who comprehend it?

by Admin on Sat May 24, 2008 8:51 am

Unprofitable Servant wrote:Likewise, I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist, but so did the Arians and all other so-called heretics. By Trinitarianism, I mean it in the orthodox manner (Jesus is God, The Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God: one God, three persons). So my questions is: are/were there any Gnostics who believe this? Even better, are there any who comprehend it?

But when it all boils down to the ULTIMATE TRUTH, on the SPIRITUAL level, are we not 'ALL' ONE ?

Hasn't the problem over this matter always been over words, terms and interpretations - with NO REAL UNDERSTANDING ?

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

by Unprofitable Servant on Mon May 26, 2008 3:51 am

Admin wrote:

Hasn't the problem over this matter always been over words, terms and interpretations - with NO REAL UNDERSTANDING ?

That's the crazy thing about the Trinity doctrine as presented by "orthodoxy". Heres a typical Christian web-site admitting that they don't understand their own most central doctrine (http://www.allaboutgod.com/trinity-doctrine.htm).

Trinity Doctrine - How Can We Comprehend It?
The most difficult thing about the Trinity Doctrine is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely higher than we are, therefore we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God (Exodus 3:14), that Jesus is God (John 8:58 , and that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). The Bible also teaches that there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; James 2:19). How these two statements of doctrine can both be true is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this doesn't mean that they're both not true.

By their admission it can't be explained or be understood.

Its frightening that this doctrine has been forced onto generations of believers and to label those who don't believe it as heretics.

But also, if one cannot understand a certain doctrine, how can one truly believe it? Or is it merely requried that one does not fight against it?

Peace,
Mark

by Prism1111 on Tue May 27, 2008 9:55 am

The trinity is a very true , understandable, seeing in wisdom, and living in day by Day, and a very easy thing to explain and understand when seen in knowledge of the Gnostic scriptures Now.

let me tell you with a kind of Parable you may see; For let us take the Roll as the Father, our Spirit about us that we seek to expand in us and sustain us, will be called that Virgin Spirit of the Father. It is of us and no other and loved and protect by us and all its source is from within us.. Therefore to give that great gift of our Spirit to let say Our infant son or daughter it will be the exact image of our Spirit we give them in all love and purity, so they may know us as our children of the Father, also that they may inherit all that is us also from that they seek of us. It will follow them were ever they go when they think of us or need our guidance. This exact Image of our Spirit would to the Trinity be the Holy Spirit, who is of the Father and no other.
As our Children Grow they will need to be givin knowledge with words, feelings, examples from us to them to find that inheritance they have had from birth to live in a free seeking mind state to expand as we truly would love them to be, so these words from us to them (which hold our seeds) are known as the Son of the father. remember the word made flesh, made in their own Image to recognize, being Jesus or whom ever be neccessary to be the Vissal of the Fathers living word or Christ as we Call it.

When we as Fathers yell to our sons to get out of the road from the car comming, is this not the saving word for them in the mortal realm? As we were made of both these realms, and the mortal realm is an image of the Celestrial, we have the ability by seeking to understand both because of our inheritance givin us at birth and prior by the true Father. The Holy Spirit embelishes the word to grow to new Heights in the father.
So now You see the Father,Son and Holy Spirit is one, 3 distinct powers, and as we are made in that image. Do we not have a Mind to think, a heart to love, and a hand to hold, but our parts are still of the one in a mortal sence.

I pray with much grace from the Father I did explaine this in all His glory that is desirved
in helping others see this Mystery, few others will find.

Brother Thomas......... Basketball

by Unprofitable Servant on Wed May 28, 2008 4:09 am

Hi Bro Thomas,

So on the question of Gnostic Trinitarians; I guess the answer is that they do exist.

I went to Church all my youth, and somehow passed into adulthood always assuming that the Father, Jesus, and the Spirit were separate heavenly beings, and that only the Father was God. So later when I became an agnostic/atheist studying and debating religion, it came as somewhat of a surprise to learn that in fact Christians mostly believed that Jesus was God. Not the Son of God as he said over and over, but actually God. And that there was a doctrine that said that Jesus, the Father and the Spirit who talked amongst themselves were all one God. Wow.

But more surprising was learning that this doctrine was concocted in the 4th century. Not explicitly documented until then. And then of cause there was the ugly history where the inventors of this idea tried to get rid of Gnostics and many blessed followers of the Way who believed otherwise.

Prism1111 wrote:
let me tell you with a kind of Parable you may see; For let us take the Roll as the Father, our Spirit about us that we seek to expand in us and sustain us, will be called that Virgin Spirit of the Father. It is of us and no other and loved and protect by us and all its source is from within us.. Therefore to give that great gift of our Spirit to let say Our infant son or daughter it will be the exact image of our Spirit we give them in all love and purity, so they may know us as our children of the Father, also that they may inherit all that is us also from that they seek of us. It will follow them were ever they go when they think of us or need our guidance. This exact Image of our Spirit would to the Trinity be the Holy Spirit, who is of the Father and no other.
As our Children Grow they will need to be givin knowledge with words, feelings, examples from us to them to find that inheritance they have had from birth to live in a free seeking mind state to expand as we truly would love them to be, so these words from us to them (which hold our seeds) are known as the Son of the father. remember the word made flesh, made in their own Image to recognize, being Jesus or whom ever be neccessary to be the Vissal of the Fathers living word or Christ as we Call it.

When we as Fathers yell to our sons to get out of the road from the car comming, is this not the saving word for them in the mortal realm? As we were made of both these realms, and the mortal realm is an image of the Celestrial, we have the ability by seeking to understand both because of our inheritance givin us at birth and prior by the true Father. The Holy Spirit embelishes the word to grow to new Heights in the father.
So now You see the Father,Son and Holy Spirit is one, 3 distinct powers, and as we are made in that image. Do we not have a Mind to think, a heart to love, and a hand to hold, but our parts are still of the one in a mortal sence.

Now in your parable, you ask me to imagine that I am a Trinity, that I am like God. I'm uncertain whether you are saying that we are a Trinity - that we are God - or whether you are using an analogy that we have characteristics of a greater Celestial Trinity. Could you clarify precisely what you mean?

In either case, this is very difficult for me, a sinner. I have a mind to think both good and evil, a heart that is sometimes cold as is sometimes warm, and a hand that both holds and takes away. The very things that brought me to believe in the way of Jesus was the fact that I was not like God at all, nor like the son, the spirit or even the least of his angels in Heaven. That I had become corrupted to a point I became disgusted with myself like the proverbial Prodigal in the pig-pen, but also that there was an alternative way to the path I was on.

Peace,

Mark

by Admin on Wed May 28, 2008 6:10 am

Something else to be considered here is the OT verse from PSALMS which Yehoshua is supposed to have quoted:

Psalm 82:6 "I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High."

John 10:34-36 "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

What is the meaning here?

PLU ~ Bob Very Happy

by sopherim7 on Wed May 28, 2008 6:40 am

awesome point bob i have always thought about that . the theology of this is very deep.

by sojourner_8 on Wed May 28, 2008 6:06 pm

Personally I consider the Trinity aspect of theology to be a fabrication of orthodoxy. When Paul decided to preach the teachings of Jesus he embellished them and literally proclaimed Christ to be God! He had no foundation for his zealous announcements, yet he became the voice of Christianity to the detriment of those who followed the teachings of Christ.

When the Roman church needed to explain the idea of One God, incorporating the deification of Jesus, and the the aspect of the Divine knowledge, they created the Trinity.

It isn't without precedent. We as humans inhabit a duality that has trinity aspects. We are physical and alive...we are spiritual and also alive. In the physical we have a body, the flowing life sustaining force of the blood, and a brain. In our spititual aspect, we have the soul-body, the spirit-life force, and the mind. Following this truth it would be easy to extrapolate a trinity of divinity. However, incorportation of a being into the purity and all encompassing ineffibility of The One is impossible without becoming The One!

I choose not to name or even attempt to name the Creator! I see it as folly, yet I strive to be one with It.

I, therefore, cannot fathom the concept of the trinity as being more than a machination of man, discarding the Perfection of The One, The All, and substituting a knowable and obtainable lesser concept. We are all Children of God! It cannot be any other way, for God exists in everything...is everything.

Peace and Light and Wisdom

by Admin on Wed May 28, 2008 6:41 pm

Some wise philosophers have advised those seeking to know God, to know thyself. cyclops

But all this is way beyond intellectual understanding. When one understands, there can be no separation, the Father and I are (?) ONE. Question

Just guessing scratch

~ Bob

by Unprofitable Servant on Thu May 29, 2008 3:29 am

Admin wrote:Something else to be considered here is the OT verse from PSALMS which Yehoshua is supposed to have quoted:

Psalm 82:6 "I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High."

John 10:34-36 "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

What is the meaning here?

PLU ~ Bob

Hi Bob,

Jesus referred to the scripture "you are gods" in his defence when being accused of blasphemy. But it is worth going back to the reference in Ps 82:6 and reading the rest of the passage -

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

In GThom (30) Jesus said, "Where there are three deities, they are divine. Where there are two or one, I am with that one." But earlier in GThom (29) the master says "Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty."

Both passages appear to teach that we can be so much more than we now are. We imagine ourselves as limited mortal beings when our spirit is truly immortal. We look at our present life and hope to become famous, beautiful, rich or powerful and imagine that these are all that we might become. But in reality, these are illusiory and utterly worthless compared to our true potential. Therefore, the Mystic does not aspire to greatness in earthly things or envy those with what seems like great wealth. If he has power, he renounces it (GThom 81) and seeks to lay up his riches in heaven (Mt 6:20).

Jesus also describes further the celestial state "For in the resurrection they ... are as the angels of God in heaven." (Mt 22:30). I believe that to be a Child of the most high God in the celestial realm is such a powerful and great position that if we looked at it from our present perspective, it would be a god-like state. But now, we should merely repent and look with trembling at what we have become.

Peace,
Mark.

by Unprofitable Servant on Thu May 29, 2008 4:16 am

Admin wrote:Some wise philosophers have advised those seeking to know God, to know thyself.

Jesus said (GThom 3) "When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father."

The theme of these kinds of passages is usually that an understanding of one's self is the starting point of greater wisdom, also as below.

Supposedly this was inscribed in the ancient Temple of Delphi:

“I warn you, whoever you are, Oh, you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you be able to find it outside. If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies? In you is hidden the treasure of treasures. Oh, man, know yourself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods!”

Peace,
Mark

by Unprofitable Servant on Thu May 29, 2008 4:43 am

Hi Sojourner,

sojourner_8 wrote:When Paul decided to preach the teachings of Jesus he embellished them and literally proclaimed Christ to be God! He had no foundation for his zealous announcements, yet he became the voice of Christianity to the detriment of those who followed the teachings of Christ.

Thanks. It is often thought that not believing the Trinity is somehow diminishes or denies the work of Jesus. On the contrary, I tend to think of Jesus as an example, and that his humanity demonstrates that we can aspire to follow his example. If Jesus was the one and only God, I would assume that his example was too difficult for man to attempt - which is how a good number of Christians live in practice.

But the word "divine" means "heavenly" or "from the celestial kingdom", and by that definition certainly Jesus is divine, and we too can hope to become divine.

Peace,
Mark

by Prism1111 on Thu May 29, 2008 9:10 am

Blessed greetings to you Mark, I am truly amazed to see the Broad spectrum that You understand of yourself indeed, with the questions you asked concerning the story the Spirit allowed me to compose and give witness too. In uderstanding the alternative direction you now seek, in truth you have help free your own bonds of this world enough to allow your Spirit to be enlighted further and understand more for additional strength in your progression to the Father within you and also without.
You said the reason you changed your ways were because of Jesus, yes, how right you are Mark, for me also. He ask the disciples "who they say He is, when finnaly it came to state that You are the Christ (son of God). He said, to tell no man this. many wonder why he said this. It was because 1. He did not fulfill yet what he must do, which was to bring the Kingdom of Heaven down for all men to find if they seek it 2. He came to help sinners be enlightened to the Father not believers in the world. He could not do this comming as a King to them. See Mark Jesus is to each of us what we need him to be within our individual journeies with and to the Father because he was the embodyment of the word of the Father, and He conquered death (dark side) with in all men by the resurection from it. There is much more text on all these areas, but lets continue.
Now You ask me the question on the parable I spoke of. Which is far more than I was seeking only to help you in you earthly realm and hinting to the celestrial because few do see. You have recognize a great truth that is, but caution should be advised that this is achieved through a living Love of the Father along with all the knowledge and things of Christ and the Parents (Holy Spirit) power is intended to perform within us. Put on a pure heart initially with yourself and the father and your Journey will be Bliss.
Jesus Planted the Fathers seed well and as he said will watch the world till it blazes in His fire of Truth. This fire is in those that carry his truth, welcome to his truth brother Mark.

To help relieve your burden of Sin in this world as we all are subjected to, Read Pistis Sophia and the Mystery of Baptism, it is most empowering and encompasses most all of the Mysteries of the Father.Pistis Sophia Index
Earthly traditions see baptism as ounce, but on the contrary should be perform as needed to stay pure and attaining a closer existance with the Father for me. All our views are unique indeed.

Also Mark, All the scripture stuff of the Bible verses the Gnostics have a very understandable puzzle fit to them, and why and how they came to be. Learn to use what the spirit within you sees as good of the father and not of man. You will know.

Much peace to you Mark on the lights you are seeking in Christ
step by step brother

Br, Thomas...... Basketball

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