DO ANGELS FLY? OR USE STAIRS?

Originally, in traditional (ancient) Israelite thought, angels (= 'messengers' of God) were simply Divinely Inspired human beings, thus they could easily be mistaken for ‘ordinary’ men (cf. Hebrews 13:2). Later, it was believed (by the uninitiated, who thought/think that Heaven/God is somewhere physically up in the sky) that these messengers from God would have to traverse to and from Heaven by the use of “ladders”/”stairs” (Genesis 28:12).

After the period of Israel's Babylonian exile (BC 597-538), Jewish thought about angels was considerably altered. Drawing on Mesopotamian beliefs, writers began to provide “wings,” even for the anthropomorphic angels. An example of complete ignorance, which still persists amongst many today.

Isn't this just one example of how erroneous superstitions entered religious belief (and art)?

PLU ~ Bob

During paranoiac episodes, I thought everybody I saw and met were demons. Conversely, when I feel in touch w/ the Divine, it seems I meet alot of angels.

Later, it was believed (by the uninitiated, who thought/think that Heaven/God is somewhere physically up in the sky) that these messengers from God would have to traverse to and from Heaven by the use of “ladders”/”stairs” (Genesis 28:12).

This is obviously symbolic(what isn't though ) Perhaps, it can be symbolic of the Qabalah's Tree of Life?

theeternaliam wrote:

Bob wrote:Later, it was believed (by the uninitiated, who thought/think that Heaven/God is somewhere physically up in the sky) that these messengers from God would have to traverse to and from Heaven by the use of “ladders”/”stairs” (Genesis 28:12).

This is obviously symbolic(what isn't though ) Perhaps, it can be symbolic of the Qabalah's Tree of Life?

This idea (physical stairway to heaven) comes from over three thousand years ago when people thought the Earth and heavens were literally held up on pillars, etc. Even today, I think many people will tell you heaven is up in the sky somewhere. I do not think that the ladder mentioned in this passage was meant symbolically, any more than angels wings are meant symbolically. I think it was in ignorance of the facts. How many people today believe that angels have physical wings? Practically everyone!

PLU ~ Bob

If you saw an angel w/ wings, perhaps in a dream, a vision, or even waking life, would you believe in angels w/ wings?

I'm not even sure if humans have physical bodies!!!

This idea (physical stairway to heaven) comes
from over three thousand years ago when people thought the Earth and
heavens were literally held up on pillars, etc. Even today, I think
many people will tell you heaven is up in the sky somewhere. I do not
think that the ladder mentioned in this passage was meant symbolically,
any more than angels wings are meant symbolically. I think it was in
ignorance of the facts. How many people today believe that angels have
physical wings? Practically everyone!

PLU ~ Bob

i really do not think many people today believe heaven is in the sky. maybe some very little children. the Darwin infused school systems start teaching about the universe very early ,at least up here they do.they learn all about the solar system in kindergarten. As far as wings , the seraphim have wings ,as described in Ezekiel and revelation. So do you think that it is allegory? or simply false? i believe i recall reading somewhere on this site you think angels are not real, ? why so much mention even in ancient mystical Judaism. what about the nephlym ? it is clear that there are different types, thrones ,dominions, powers ,archangels ,cheibium,seraphim. what do you make of that? i also think maybe the ancient Greek's might have had memory of them or interaction with them , and this could be the source of what they called gods?

:flower:sopherim

theeternaliam wrote:If you saw an angel w/ wings, perhaps in a dream, a vision, or even waking life, would you believe in angels w/ wings?

I'm not even sure if humans have physical bodies!!!

Just ask yourself what use are (physical) wings if the Spiritual Kingdom is within? Where do messengers of God travel?

PLU ~ Bob

Just ask yourself what use are (physical) wings if the Spiritual Kingdom is within? Where do messengers of God travel?

PLU ~ Bob

well, the cherubim in Ezekiel,use there "physical wings" to cover there bodys. The kingdom with in, hmmmm
see, i think the kingdom within is much larger then it "seems" your giving credit to. Yes the kingdom is with in ,but thru death we "ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM" that has always been within.it is a whole nother dimension of being .how can we say or know anything truly about the ETERNAL kingdom, and what it is like there. Who knows ? i have a question for you,bob
" what do YOU think the after life will be like ?"
'
sopherim

sopherim7 wrote:

Just ask yourself what use are (physical) wings if the Spiritual Kingdom is within? Where do messengers of God travel?

PLU ~ Bob

well, the cherubim in Ezekiel, use their "physical wings" to cover their bodies. The kingdom within, hmmmm
see, i think the kingdom within is much larger then it "seems" your giving credit to. Yes the kingdom is within ,but thru death we "ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM" that has always been within.

"Through death we enter the Kingdom" means that we have to be completely detached (i.e. metaphorically 'dead') to this carnal world ~ it does not mean physical death as in literally dying.

It [the Heavenly Kingdom] is a whole nother dimension of being. How can we say or know anything truly about the ETERNAL kingdom, and what it is like there. Who knows? I have a question for you, bob:
"what do YOU think the after life will be like?"

We can enter this Kingdom right here and now. It is not in the future - it is ETERNAL. This is what GNOSIS is all about - KNOWLEDGE through EXPERIENCE.

Jesus plainly said that his close (initiated) disciples who were with him then (2,000 years ago) would not taste death until they SEE the KINGDOM of God.
Mark 9:1 "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power."

PLU ~ Bob

P.S. see my signature below

i understand bob that we can enter the kingdom here and now, although it is just a taste,i guess i want to know what you think happens when the body dies literal ,physical death, this is more the question i have for you.

sopherim

sopherim7 wrote:i understand bob that we can enter the kingdom here and now, although it is just a taste, i guess i want to know what you think happens when the body dies literal, physical death, this is more the question i have for you.

sopherim

How can anyone know what they have not experienced? You are asking for mere ideas and beliefs about the future - what good are ideas and beliefs? The only REALITY is NOW.

The experience of LIGHT, and all that comes with that experience is sufficient to fill one with Love right now. What more can one wish for? NOW IS ETERNITY IN LIGHT.

PLU ~ Bob

true enough bob, i myself do ponder on it though, when i think of what it will be like to be free of the chains , the joy within me is jumping it reminds me of the verse ,that we will be like him.i just wanted to know if you ever thought of it ,the after life, and what your thoughts were, but i gather you do not think of that ,you only think about the joy of now.i also live in the joy of now, but i also live in the hope of the joy to come

sopherim

"Through death we enter the Kingdom" means that we have to be completely detached (i.e. metaphorically 'dead') to this carnal world ~ it does not mean physical death as in literally dying.

There was once a saying in the Gospel,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the
ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much
fruit."

What people FALL to understand at every turn is that they are a machine, that they are a mechanical man. They have never lived in order that they may die. A man in this world is in a deep sleep, under a bondage of external force ruled over by the God of this World, and the germ in them, which is a counterfeit and imposed upon them from their organic interaction in this world. But this was by fate, by the laws of their birth. This parable is the same as the sower and seed, although the sower and seed goes into much more.

Every man must die in order to Enter the kingdom, but this does not refer to the death that natural man thinks, but the death of one who has opened their eyes to what their condition in this world is, they as Yeshua said, are a poverty. And unless you realize that you dwell in poverty of mind and being, where much of what constitutes what you imagine yourself to be is not your own or even of you, that you have never had an original thought, nor feeling, or anything of that manner, that all your thoughts and feelings are by accident, mechanical laws that rule you supremely then you have no chance to come to your senses and shake off the intoxication which has ensnared you into not seeing, as Yeshua has stated. A man must awake from slumber. The death which an individual must bring upon themselves is in regards that germ, which is many in them. This death does not mean erasing, but rather to prepare to be raised up. One must become undivided, one must die in this sense in order that one may achieve the birth of mind; or one can not enter the kingdom.

We can enter this Kingdom right here and now. It is not in the future - it is ETERNAL. This is what GNOSIS is all about - KNOWLEDGE through EXPERIENCE.

Yup the kingdom is nigh upon you. Why would Yeshua say, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. It is in the NOW, now is all there is, the future and past are building blocks in the NOW -- now is in consciousness, the variants in that now are dimensions of mind. Most do not understand what the Kingdom means or is, it would be better for a man to question if he is even worthy of the kingdom in his state or not, if he has not made himself an inheritor, because one who is not alive can not inherit anything. What people should do is come to understand WHY they can not enter the kingdom as they are now, come to understand the problem.

Most just want to receive without giving, they want the cure without knowing the disease. Until one knows thy self, fully, they can not enter the kingdom. They must know their constitution and they must know their Authentic Soul of Light which is not of this world. For entering the kingdom, the foremost, is through being born into the Nature which you truly are. It means nothing for this nature to receive you after physical death, because if one fails to become permanent then most of what constitutes them is temporal and of this world and returns to dust. The Kingdom is come by bringing together the male/female realities of ones being within themselves. But "being born again" acquires this, but this is the birth of mind, the Anointing into your True Self. Only then do you have true permanence and are apart of it, as an essential co-creator in its creations.

Admin wrote:

theeternaliam wrote:

Bob wrote:Later, it was believed (by the uninitiated, who thought/think that Heaven/God is somewhere physically up in the sky) that these messengers from God would have to traverse to and from Heaven by the use of “ladders”/”stairs” (Genesis 28:12).

This is obviously symbolic(what isn't though ) Perhaps, it can be symbolic of the Qabalah's Tree of Life?

This idea (physical stairway to heaven) comes from over three thousand years ago when people thought the Earth and heavens were literally held up on pillars, etc. Even today, I think many people will tell you heaven is up in the sky somewhere. I do not think that the ladder mentioned in this passage was meant symbolically, any more than angels wings are meant symbolically. I think it was in ignorance of the facts. How many people today believe that angels have physical wings? Practically everyone!

PLU ~ Bob

Reply:

Hi Ben. Vey good topic! The pillar that you are referencing/ladder is the human spine. The earth is the Muladhara/Root/grounding chakra. Heaven is the Sahashrara/Crown chakra -renewed mind. I agree with you, the wings are definitely symbolic.

Htp

sopherim7 wrote:

Just ask yourself what use are (physical) wings if the Spiritual Kingdom is within? Where do messengers of God travel?

PLU ~ Bob

well, the cherubim in Ezekiel,use there "physical wings" to cover there bodys. The kingdom with in, hmmmm
see, i think the kingdom within is much larger then it "seems" your giving credit to. Yes the kingdom is with in ,but thru death we "ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM" that has always been within.it is a whole nother dimension of being .how can we say or know anything truly about the ETERNAL kingdom, and what it is like there. Who knows ? i have a question for you,bob
" what do YOU think the after life will be like ?"
'
sopherim

Reply:

theeternaliam wrote:If you saw an angel w/ wings, perhaps in a dream, a vision, or even waking life, would you believe in angels w/ wings?

I'm not even sure if humans have physical bodies!!!

Heh heh, good one.....



I call my littlest 'Little Wing.' (Hendrix song) But technically I don't even believe in 'angels', unless speaking in non-literal terms- but I would theorize that an angel is the same thing as a demon, just which sides such a creature chooses.... But I don't beleive in fluffy winged little fat guys, no.